That woman who threw green stuff at Mandelson

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Mr Q
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Gavin Scott wrote:I'm not sure the "seatbelt" analogy really holds true as a causal factor in the way you describe, Mr Q, as its not the retail banking customer who drives the bank.

Customers should show diligence when selecting a bank to leave monies on deposit - but how could anyone on the ground make a well-informed decision when the banks have been less than transparent about the extent of their toxic assets, and the true nature of their balance sheets? Besides, its been at least 50 years since there was a run on a British bank, and for most in the country it was an unimaginable outcome.
Absolutely - this goes to the point in my second post about informational asymmetries. It's quite probable that consumers won't ever be able to get full access to that sort of information even if they had the time or the inclination to seek it out. What I was trying to highlight though was that we should be careful about calls for more regulation, because such interventions change people's incentives. We need to be wary about the idea that regulation can help make the system 'safer' for consumers in particular - that's where policymakers can start to get into trouble.
This should never have happened, obviously. Or at least, its obvious to me - but it apparently wasn't obvious to those bankers who traded on these securities.
It's certainly interesting how easily the basic principle of 'buyer beware' was lost. If I'm going to buy something, I generally like to have a pretty good idea of what it is I'm handing money over for. Yet so many of these derivatives that were being traded were so complex that there is virtually no way anyone could have known what they were buying. And yet all the major players in global finance were buying them anyway. It was almost as if complexity was taken as a proxy for quality.

In this sense, the ratings agencies are rightly attracting a fair chunk of the blame. I think their credibility in rating these sorts of 'assets' (rather, highly toxic liabilities) has been destroyed. The problem is of course that the ratings agencies - whose services were used by buyers to determine if what they should be buying was safe - were being paid by the people who were selling the products. Surprise, surprise: if a particular ratings agency wants the business of a particular firm, then it has an incentive to say that firm's products are outstanding. Ratings agencies became advisors, working closely with the sellers to structure their exotic investment packages to secure the highest possible ratings. Put another way, they were recommending how the turds should be polished.

For all these problems, the difficulty is that the services of ratings agencies basically have to be paid for by sellers, because buyers will be able to 'free ride'. If you had a situation where buyers had to pay for access to ratings, then as soon as a few people have paid for the particular report, the information will spread. It's simply not the sort of information that you can keep a lid on. And if you know you'll be able to get the information without paying for it, then why would you pay for it in the first place? Which means that the ratings agencies won't have much business to keep them afloat at all.

Does that mean ratings advice should be regulated? Maybe. Though I note that S&P and Moody's basically enjoy a duopoly in terms of ratings advice as a result of accreditation standards that have tended to act as a barrier to entry. In fact, less regulation in this regard - allowing more players to enter the field and compete - should help raise standards. Given just how badly the ratings agencies have performed, I think people will be quite averse to taking their statements at face value. So they've got to rebuild their reputations now. Ultimately, people aren't going to value their services unless they perceive the information that they provide as being accurate.
cdd wrote:I couldn't agree more. But there's a problem - really, any responsible government has no option but to bail out a bank that has millions of customers - and the banks know it. Although refusing to bail out the banks might result in a sturdier banking system in the future, as consumers become aware of the risk, that kind of strategy is political suicide. I just don't see any democratic government entertaining that strategy.

Although you're right to say the mere knowledge that the government wouldn't be bailing them out might prevent this situation from arising in the first place, the problem is how the government convinces the banks of this. If I were a bank, I'd be pretty sure it was an empty threat.
It seems strange to say this, but cdd, you're 100% correct. It's politically infeasible to not bail out banks, particularly where consumers risk losing their life savings if the institution goes under. But doing so poses significant longer term challenges. If I were running a bank, yes, I'd be pretty confident that if I stuffed things up badly enough that the government would ride to the rescue. Shareholders get all the upside from risky strategies - that is, higher returns - and taxpayers get stuck paying for the downside.
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Gavin Scott
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I don't disagree about too much legislation and protections ultimately being damaging, but its worth pointing out that its only now (as a rescue measure) that these things are being mooted. If anything, regulation has lessened in the last decade.
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Sput
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Just noticed that they've arrested the daft bint (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7931185.stm). I saw she'd appeared on the telly comparing their protest to that of the suffragettes and the coal miners, quite a bit of gall, I'd say. Full disclosure: I hate protests because I think they're a flawed system of representation of the people within them. The prevailing message of a protest is too easily controlled by a moron who assaults someone or the people with no sense of nuance who shout the loudest.
Knight knight
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and all of this has come about because someone at "Stupid campaign group" , did this to highlight Lord Mandelson support for a new runway at Heathrow airport.

saying that in scotland there did there old and tested method of just running on to the runway, I think it was Aberdeen on Tuesday. The best ones of all where at Peswick? anti US people broken in and got in to US planes 3 times in a week!
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Mr Q
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Gavin Scott wrote:I don't disagree about too much legislation and protections ultimately being damaging, but its worth pointing out that its only now (as a rescue measure) that these things are being mooted. If anything, regulation has lessened in the last decade.
Sure, but we shouldn't forget the tremendous growth and prosperity that we enjoyed during that time as well. At this stage, while this economic crisis is significant, it has not eroded all of those gains - and for all the doom and gloom around, I still find it hard to imagine that they ever could. Moreover, the idea that the financial sector has been 'deregulated' is not entirely accurate. It is still subject to plenty of restrictions and obligations. In many cases, liberalisation simply entailed a change in the way things were regulated rather than a wholesale removal of regulations. While I think it's fair to ask about what regulations were remove, we should also identify which regulations were left in place, and evaluate their effects as well.

I think this has been a major issue in the US, where this crisis originated - for all the talk of the 'free market' there, and how Americans are the champion of commercial enterprise, it's remarkable at just how subject the financial sector there was to government interventions. This was an industry monitored by at least four or five regulators, and had Congress sticking its oar in to tell banks to lend money to people who in fact couldn't afford to pay it back. You had the Federal Reserve refusing to do anything in the presence of 'bubbles' forming in the economy, and yet as soon as those bubbles burst, they slashed interest rates and held them low, only encouraging new bubbles to form.
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Chie
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Sput wrote:
Chie wrote:
Sput wrote:So government spending policy caused the recession? How does that work, exactly?
The government is partly to blame.

Partly. Do you know what that word means, Sput? It means: NOT COMPLETELY. Durrrrrrrr :roll:
Well first that question was aimed at James H, but you didn't use the word "Partly" when you posted before anyway. Anyway I still need enlightening: which part do you think they caused? All I'm asking is for you to connect a few dots because I genuinely don't understand your point of view.
Interviewer's words: "why isn't the government apologising for its PART in the recession?"

Maldelson's words: "the government certainly doesn't share ANY of the blame..."

It's simple, really.
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Sput
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Yeah I know it was asked and they said that, but I can't see which part would be their fault. Now, you think they're partly to blame so I was after your thoughts on which part it was that they're to blame for.
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Sput wrote:Yeah I know it was asked and they said that, but I can't see which part would be their fault. Now, you think they're partly to blame so I was after your thoughts on which part it was that they're to blame for.
Its simple, really, Chie.
rts
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Fathers 4 Justice protest thwarted at Heathrow: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7950295.stm
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Gavin Scott
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rts wrote:Fathers 4 Justice protest thwarted at Heathrow: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7950295.stm
Fucking idiots.

Yeh - I'd give custody of a child to a fool in a Batman suit trying to burst the tyres of a passenger jet. :roll:
cdd
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Mirrors the suffragettes' movement, doesn't it?
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