That woman who threw green stuff at Mandelson

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iSon
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Stuart* wrote:Jimmy Ison with his inept reposting of the ‘paddle image’).
I won't be exploring the minutae of this particular point, but would like to give my own personal view that this is a forum and isn't entirely serious so there will always be people like me referring back to images that happen to sum up my particular feelings. I also like using images such as the paddles as it means I don't tend to "wade" into arguments other than posting an amusing image that can often be skipped over. It may add very little but in equal measure isn't something that will largely offend.

Anyway, let's us keep on topic here. Sput has given his "explanation" of what caused this recession, which of course is difficult to pin down. It's not like he's throwing stones but then not qualifying what is being said. You have taken him to task over his views and that is of course equally acceptable as we're all here to chat and have friendly discussions.

I am sure Chie would like to fight his own battles though and as he has chosen not to respond to this thread at the moment I would suggest you take this into consideration.
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Stuart*
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Hymagumba wrote:
Stuart* wrote:(such as Jimmy Ison with his inept reposting of the ‘paddle image’).
as opposed to your own "wit" of reposting the jimmy and muzzle shit that nobody found funny first time?
No wit involved whatsoever, but when responding to those who seem to revel in such immaturity it seems an appropriate way to reply.

As ever, Sput's assertion of 'always' means nothing of the sort. Enough said!
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James H
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Stuart* wrote: Rather than heckle from the orchestra pit, Sput,
I play in various orchestra pits and MD lots of things. Trust me - if Sput wants to heckle whilst playing third flugelhorn, he can.
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James H wrote:I play in various orchestra pits and MD lots of things. Trust me - if Sput wants to heckle whilst playing third flugelhorn, he can.
Good on you James, and I am sure that I would've had the chance to hear you if I still lived in the North East.

However, I suggest Sput voices his opinions in a more practical manner.

If he were playing 'third flügelhorn' then I would have to listen to his argument through another orifice - and I wouldn't want to do that on a regular basis, would I!
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Mr Q
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barcode wrote:What caused this is stupid banks / lenders giving out money and buying stuff which were bad
Yes - isn't that terrible. Banks lending money and people buying stuff. What has the world come to! ;)

This crisis is a complex thing, and it is being perpetuated by a hell of a lot of uncertainty. The UK has been harder hit than other countries, with the spectacular implosion of such institutions as Northern Rock, and the massive bailing out of other British banks.

Banks, like any business of course, can make mistakes and lose a lot of money. Our particular interest in banks is that when they collapse, they take OUR money with them. Hence we have tended to demand greater regulation of banks, imposing safeguards ostensibly to protect consumers interests. The most recent manifestation of this has been wide-reaching government guarantees of retail deposits. Now all this sounds fantastic to most people - except it fails to take into account some potentially nasty, unintended consequences.

An economist at the University of Chicago, Sam Peltzman, has offered some criticism of mandatory seatbelt laws that are present in many jurisdictions. This would seem to be quite controversial. Most people tend to regard the wearing of seatbelts in cars as a good thing - it's a safety feature. Seatbelts helps to minimise injuries and save lives. How could that be a bad thing? In fact, Peltzman hypothesised that mandating the use of seatbelts could encourage riskier behaviour. If you enjoy greater protection in your vehicle in the event of a crash, your incentive to avoid crashing is reduced. That doesn't mean there is no incentive to avoid crashing - you could still sustain injuries, and you would face the cost of repairs to your own vehicle, and so on - only that you might take fractionally less care while driving than if you knew you would be flung head first out the windscreen in an accident. (As an aside, some might suggest the best way to minimise the road toll and promote safe driving would be to require all vehicles to attach a giant, sharp spike to the steering column pointing straight at the driver's head. In virtually any crash, the driver would end up skewered. Increasing the cost of having an accident - in this case, the probability of losing one's life - would provide a strong incentive to drive as safe as possible.)

The 'Peltzman effect' has broader applicability than just seatbelts: it implies that any sort of safety regulation can actually promote riskier conduct. In a sense, efforts to protect banking customers represent a form of safety regulation. The more you try to protect customers, the riskier the investment strategies might become. Certainly in the case of a government guarantee of deposits, the customer has very little incentive to find the most sound institution in the market place - there's zero risk to them if the bank collapses. Hence they will be more likely to bank with higher-risk operators, who will generally be offering higher interest rates on savings. I'm thinking of the likes of IceSave.

Arguably, if there was absolutely no regulation or government intervention in the financial sector, consumers would demand greater financial security from their banks. If they could not be confident that their bank wouldn't collapse, they could simply choose to stuff their money under the bed. The banks need people to deposit money with them in order to exist, so they would change their business plans to adopt less risky strategies (such that they would minimise the risk of going bankrupt). Of course, there would be downsides to this approach as well - less lending, for instance, seems a probable outcome. However, an environment where financial security is demand-driven rather than attempted by policymakers, you might well end up with a more stable financial sector than what exists now. Paradoxically then, a system that on the surface seemed a lot riskier would probably end up being far safer.
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Stuart*
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Facinating (and wordy) as always, Mr Q.

I am still unsure what you advocate, if anything, or whether you are just kindly explaining the situation that few (if any) of us understand.

Have we (all, or some of us) avoided the 'Peltzman' spike, or does it await us/them?

Would it have been better to be impaled (comercially speaking) and allow the banks to suffer the consequences of semi-nationalisation earlier in this debacle, or later?
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Mr Q
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My general view is that less government intervention is preferable to more. However as I say, this crisis is inherently complex. There is a possible role for governments to intervene where markets fail, although in any situation where that might be true, you still have to ask whether governments actually have the capacity to make a difference. The question of nationalisation is an especially tricky one. Ordinarily if a company collapses, policymakers do very little. And rightly so - the market has to take its course, otherwise you end up with tax dollars being used to prop up inefficient firms, and so we get a misallocation of resources (ie. labour and capital) in the economy. Yet if a bank collapses, there are sizable costs to plenty of other 'innocent' bystanders. Yes, the bank's customers could perhaps have done some research to find out which institutions are more financially secure. But to challenge my own previous post - the problem here is likely to be imperfect information. Banks will know far more about their own soundness than their customers will - a lot of the information will be hidden. You could mandate greater disclosure requirements, but of course that too imposes a cost - and a lot of measures over the years that have been designed to promote greater transparency and accountability in this way have instead resulted in complex documents of several hundred pages being released that nobody ever ends up reading.

In any event, there perhaps is a net benefit to having governments take control of failing banks to restructure them (perhaps breaking them up or redistributing their assets to more sound institutions). However for that to be true, it requires governments to be making the right decisions - which you would imagine is difficult in the current environment, where nobody is quite sure of what is happening at any point in time. Mistakes have been and will be made by policymakers trying to 'fix' this crisis. And certainly if I knew the right policy prescriptions, I would be able to make a lot of money. While short term conditions are painful for many around the world, all I can suggest is that we need to consider the possibility that our best option might be to do nothing. The unintended consequences of the policies we enact today could come to haunt us in future years. After all, previous failure to consider them has played a large part in bringing us to the crisis we face now.
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Chie
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Sput wrote:So government spending policy caused the recession? How does that work, exactly?
The government is partly to blame.

Partly. Do you know what that word means, Sput? It means: NOT COMPLETELY. Durrrrrrrr :roll:
Jovis
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Chie wrote:The government is partly to blame.

Partly. Do you know what that word means, Sput? It means: NOT COMPLETELY. Durrrrrrrr :roll:
If you did mean that, we have no way of knowing; Dunderhead said the same thing earlier, so you could have nicked it. :)
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Ronnie Rowlands
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Chie wrote: Do you know what that word means, Sput? It means: NOT COMPLETELY. Durrrrrrrr :roll:
It's a crashing shame to see such a well thought out and well put argument from Mr Q, only to have to read this as your 'response'.
Ronnie is victorious, vivacious in victory like a venomous dog. Vile Republicans cease living while the religious retort with rueful rhetoric. These rank thugs resort to violence and swear revenge.

But Ronnie can punch through steel so they lose anyway.
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Jovis wrote:If you did mean that, we have no way of knowing; Dunderhead said the same thing earlier, so you could have nicked it. :)
How could you mean his comment as anything else.
Have you read this thread, Jovis, it doesn't appear so!
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