2.12765% off - or not.

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Mr Q
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Stuart* wrote: Perhaps that’s the solution for you and me, but certainly not the preferred option of central or private banks, for the reasons I stated. They effectively lose the value of their assets, rapidly.
Well, that would also assume those assets don't increase in value over time as well. Which seems a strange assumption given that prices for everything else are rising. Even if we were to accept your premise as correct - that debt will essentially evaporate because the nominal value of debt is constant - then it would act as a significant disincentive to lend money, which would stifle investment and criple the economy. If inflation were the solution, governments would just print money.
However, Governments have now effectively underwritten all debts. It saves the banks, temporarily, but doesn’t solve the debt problem; it’s simply transfers it to a long-term lender. You and I?
Sure - but taxpayers are always going to foot the bill when government gets involved like this. It's just a question of whether it's today's taxpayers or those in future generations.
If that took place, then I believe what *must* follow is a severe restriction on personal borrowing to prevent the same thing happening again. Regulation, if not partial state ownership of banks is the answer, perhaps?

Well, my view is that regulation is largely responsible for this mess. If you look at what took place in the US, Congress decided it wanted to use the financial sector as a tool for the welfare system by instructing banks to lend to low-income earners (who wouldn't ordinarily qualify for a loan). Besides that you had Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - quasi-government institutions which were meant to be tightly regulated so as to focus on loans that private banks were unwilling to provide, but instead became powerful lobbying outfits in their own right to get favourable treatment (and in turn increase market share). Government ownership in the banking sector is hardly an appealing solution when it's been a fundamental part of the problem.

I would actually refer you back to your own earlier comment: "perhaps it’s preferable for a recession to run its course rather than try to interfere and make things worse". I actually think there's a lot of truth to that - although that's not the sort of message that appeals to politicians... or the voters.
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Sput
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God stu, you're such a commie.
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Stuart*
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Sput wrote:God stu, you're such a commie.
I am as confused by the current situation as anyone else :o
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Stuart*
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Mr Q wrote:I would actually refer you back to your own earlier comment: "perhaps it’s preferable for a recession to run its course rather than try to interfere and make things worse". I actually think there's a lot of truth to that - although that's not the sort of message that appeals to politicians... or the voters.
I don’t want to be proved right in that, but perhaps it’s the right course of action. I am not ruling out other solutions, though.
Mr Q wrote: Something about FannieMae and FeddieMac I deleted for brevity!
Stuart* wrote:Perhaps that’s the solution for you and me, but certainly not the preferred option of central or private banks, for the reasons I stated. They effectively lose the value of their assets, rapidly.

Of course they were the problem, everyone has accepted that. But there is no need to create a 2000s version of FNMA or FDMC in the UK out of the government’s part-ownership of banks, unless they need to. Those US institutions were a result of the 1930s recession, sold off badly, with management of the same ilk it seems.

I’m hoping for a solution to the problem, stop trying to tie it to a political mast on this forum.
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Mr Q
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Stuart* wrote:Of course they were the problem, everyone has accepted that. But there is no need to create a 2000s version of FNMA or FDMC in the UK out of the government’s part-ownership of banks, unless they need to. Those US institutions were a result of the 1930s recession, sold off badly, with management of the same ilk it seems.
And ultimately, while nationalisation is undesirable, it could be an appropriate temporary solution in helping to stabilise financial markets. But temporary is the key word. When markets begin to recover, the government should divest itself of its stakes in any financial institutions or other companies it has bailed out. Politicians have enough troubles trying to run a competent government - I don't rate their chances particularly high of running a business well.
I’m hoping for a solution to the problem, stop trying to tie it to a political mast on this forum.
With respect Stuart, I have no problem with hope - but what I don't want to see (and for that matter, I don't think you want to see it either) are policies being adopted for the sake of doing something. To my mind, there is a very real risk that poor decisions made today could have long lasting ramifications. In truth, there is probably very little the British government can do besides the typical fiscal and monetary policy responses to economic downturns. The US was source of this crisis, and the effects of its bad policies have been exported around the globe - irrespective of how any other countries are governed or their economies regulated. This is a clear downside to the level of global financial integration to which we have become accustomed. Now, I still contend that the benefits of that integration greatly exceed any costs we are experiencing today. But we are all susceptible to shocks originating from the US. Hence the best we can 'hope' for is that American policymakers get their acts together and start addressing some of the fundamental problems they have created through their ill-advised interventions in the markets.
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barcode
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It so nice now that a wispa at 55p will now be 51p, I will have no idea what to do with my new extra 4p!
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Nick Harvey
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barcode wrote:It so nice now that a wispa at 55p will now be 51p, I will have no idea what to do with my new extra 4p!
Maths not your strong point either, then?

55 minus 2.12765% equals 53.829793 I think.

I expect they'll round it to 54p though.

Now see if you can work out how many pennies you'll have to save to buy a calculator.
barcode
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I take the 17.5 % off the actually price

then Put back on the 15%
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Sput
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Oh good, I thought I'd missed some detail about the proposals!

Barcode, 2% of 55p is 1.1p. Show your working and I'll get the red pen!
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rdobbie
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I think we can safely assume that Poundland won't be passing on this VAT cut to its customers. So their profits look set for a very tidy windfall indeed.

(Unless they do actually change all their signage and POS to "EVERYTHING'S 98p!" and fill their tills with massive quantities of 2p coins to give out in change, but I can't see it somehow)
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Nick Harvey
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barcode wrote:I take the 17.5 % off the actually price

then Put back on the 15%
Okay, so (55-(17.5/117.5*55))*(115/100)=53.829792 if you want to do it that way.

Sorry, my quick method was 0.000001 of a penny out.

I'm sure that will bring the world to an end.
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