The Tale of the Slave

[Nini]

This is why I'm not playing, just thinking about it is making my noodle hurt.

[Mr Q]

Personally, I don't think it ever stops being a tale of slavery - there is always a level of subservience there to a "master". To take up Sput's point: yes, it' definitely alludes to compliance with some sort of government. Even where we elect a government in a perfectly liberal democratic society, there are still laws which we must adhere to whether we like them or not. We are all slaves.

For what it's worth, I'm not saying that's a bad thing either. After all, it's illegal to murder somebody - we don't enjoy that right to kill another human being. That constrains our liberty. But if we permitted it, it would restrict an even more fundamental liberty: the right to live. Killing somebody is a pretty definitive act of removing somebody else's liberty. Of course, that's a fairly simple example, and hinges on your definition of just what exactly liberty is, and where you believe our liberty is derived from.

[lukey]

Personally, I don't think it ever stops being a tale of slavery - there is always a level of subservience there to a "master". To take up Sput's point: yes, it' definitely alludes to compliance with some sort of government. Even where we elect a government in a perfectly liberal democratic society, there are still laws which we must adhere to whether we like them or not. We are all slaves.

For what it's worth, I'm not saying that's a bad thing either. After all, it's illegal to murder somebody - we don't enjoy that right to kill another human being. That constrains our liberty. But if we permitted it, it would restrict an even more fundamental liberty: the right to live. Killing somebody is a pretty definitive act of removing somebody else's liberty. Of course, that's a fairly simple example, and hinges on your definition of just what exactly liberty is, and where you believe our liberty is derived from.

This thread makes me very happy - well as happy as defining slavery and the perception of liberty can make someone, but it's definitely things I think about a lot - the idea of absolute liberty etc.

I consider myself a libertarian because I firmly believe in the idea that you should basically be entitled to do whatever you want with your life so long as you don't infringe on someone else's ability to do the same. Under that fairly simple line you can define quite easily the idea that killing someone is 'wrong'. Not because I'm a brooding mass murderer, but I did spend a lot of time wondering just how we came to the idea that killing is an absolute wrong, and I think the libertarian explanation for things is the least arbitrary of most ideologies.

[Nini]

I might be overthinking this a little but the title for me now reads "The Tale of Steve", make of that what you will.

[Mr Q]

This thread makes me very happy - well as happy as defining slavery and the perception of liberty can make someone, but it's definitely things I think about a lot - the idea of absolute liberty etc.

I consider myself a libertarian because I firmly believe in the idea that you should basically be entitled to do whatever you want with your life so long as you don't infringe on someone else's ability to do the same. Under that fairly simple line you can define quite easily the idea that killing someone is 'wrong'. Not because I'm a brooding mass murderer, but I did spend a lot of time wondering just how we came to the idea that killing is an absolute wrong, and I think the libertarian explanation for things is the least arbitrary of most ideologies.

If I had to pigeon hole myself, I'd accept the libertarian label as well. I probably came about it in a slightly different way to most people, in that I've long held free market views, but hadn't really challenged my own thoughts on what might broadly be termed 'social' issues until the past couple of years. When I thought about why I advocate free markets - my concern that there are 'government failures' which can exceed any 'market failures', and hence their intervention might not succeed in improving situations - I also realised that those same arguments applied in a broader context. I don't believe that a government's preferences for what people do with their lives should be able to override what an individual's preferences are (subject of course to the constraint you mention: that you don't infringe on someone else's rights in the process). In general, I find it's a logically consistent philosophy - which is a characteristic I find appealing.

Even if we are all slaves.

[Pete]

btw I do intend to reply to this but I thought I'd let others put their view down first before I launch into my angry rant about how much I dislike Nozick and his thinking.

[Gavin Scott]

I'm slightly embarrassed to say I had never read Nozick, nor know anything about him or his thinking.

But if you like we could do some Uta Hagen acting exercises - or worse, some Stanislavski ones.

"In order to be a King, one must know what it is to be a throne..."