Should there be an increase in tax on alcohol?

[Stuart*]

When government intervenes in the economy and in society, it causes people to change their behaviour. That is self-evident. The question then is not whether a tax or some other policy will bring about a change in behaviour, but rather will it bring about the desired change in behaviour. Society is predicated on a system of incentives and disincentives, yet these do not function independently of one another. We make decisions based on relative judgment or whether we would rather do something as opposed to something else. So when we consider policies that affect 'something', we must be mindful of what the 'something else' is as well. Most critically, we should never assume that more government intervention is always preferable to less. As has been correctly noted here, much of Europe takes a far more relaxed attitude to Britain with respect of alcohol, and yet the problems of violence and crime related to alcohol consumption appear to be lower on the continent. Any policy can yield unintended consequences. It's not unfair to question whether that's the case here.

I understand the point you are making Mr Q, but 40+ countries in Europe appear to have a low tax policy on alcohol and yet little or no discerable anti-social behaviour as a direct result of it.

Yes, the 24/7 policy for the UK (although rarely adopted by many establishments) could be a catalyst, but not the cause or continuation of the problem. The problem has existed for along time. Well before me, you and our great-grandparents were born.

The attitude to alcohol in the UK has changed over the last 50 years, through no intervention by the Government. I can't see them having an impact now.

[Mr Q]

When government intervenes in the economy and in society, it causes people to change their behaviour. That is self-evident. The question then is not whether a tax or some other policy will bring about a change in behaviour, but rather will it bring about the desired change in behaviour. Society is predicated on a system of incentives and disincentives, yet these do not function independently of one another. We make decisions based on relative judgment or whether we would rather do something as opposed to something else. So when we consider policies that affect 'something', we must be mindful of what the 'something else' is as well. Most critically, we should never assume that more government intervention is always preferable to less. As has been correctly noted here, much of Europe takes a far more relaxed attitude to Britain with respect of alcohol, and yet the problems of violence and crime related to alcohol consumption appear to be lower on the continent. Any policy can yield unintended consequences. It's not unfair to question whether that's the case here.

I understand the point you are making Mr Q, but 40+ countries in Europe appear to have a low tax policy on alcohol and yet little or no discerable anti-social behaviour as a direct result of it.

Yes, the 24/7 policy for the UK (although rarely adopted by many establishments) could be a catalyst, but not the cause or continuation of the problem. The problem has existed for along time. Well before me, you and our great-grandparents were born.

The attitude to alcohol in the UK has changed over the last 50 years, through no intervention by the Government. I can't see them having an impact now.

Stu - the point you're making is entirely consistent with the paragraph of mine that you've quoted. There appears to be a greater level of intervention in Britain with respect of alcohol than there is in continental Europe, and yet the 'problem' is worse in Britain. We're in agreement here.

[OneThingsForSure]

This is what I can't understand.

But I think the bigger problem is that kids today are so poorly behaved and have no proper discipline.

They all need a good slap if you ask me, but nobody can give them that anymore. When I was younger you were deterred by a smacked arse. Not any more.

[Mr Q]

This is what I can't understand.

But I think the bigger problem is that kids today are so poorly behaved and have no proper discipline.

They all need a good slap if you ask me, but nobody can give them that anymore. When I was younger you were deterred by a smacked arse. Not any more.

I genuinely believe that when we look back, we tend to forget. I mean, think about it. Whatever school you went to, there would have been the kids who always broke the rules and that the teachers hated. Teenage rebellion is a story as old as time itself. The problem might manifest itself in different ways, but the problem itself has always been the same.

[cdd]

The problem may not have changed, but the legitimate ways of dealing with that problem have. Which in turn impacts the problem.

[Mr Q]

The problem may not have changed, but the legitimate ways of dealing with that problem have. Which in turn impacts the problem.

Perhaps so - but are those "legitimate ways" different in the UK to the rest of Europe? For the most part, I imagine not.

[cdd]

The problem may not have changed, but the legitimate ways of dealing with that problem have. Which in turn impacts the problem.

Perhaps so - but are those "legitimate ways" different in the UK to the rest of Europe? For the most part, I imagine not.

But are UK and European cultures identical? *I*'d imagine not, so I think the legitimate ways should differ.

[Mr Q]

The problem may not have changed, but the legitimate ways of dealing with that problem have. Which in turn impacts the problem.

Perhaps so - but are those "legitimate ways" different in the UK to the rest of Europe? For the most part, I imagine not.

But are UK and European cultures identical? *I*'d imagine not, so I think the legitimate ways should differ.

Well, perhaps I've misinterpreted what you've said, but by 'legitimate ways of dealing with the problem', I assume you mean the powers that police and parents have. I'm not an expert on the differences in laws between European governments, but I would have thought that across the UK and Europe, those were broadly the same. If anything, there's probably greater scope in British law to deal with 'hooliganism' than there is on the continent.

[Nini]

It's cultural, most other countries don't use alcohol as medication to numb their senses from the world that surrounds them. Most don't use it as the sole means to have fun by and most can actually handle their whiskey.

I'm pissing in the wind here, I have no idea.

[cdd]

Well, perhaps I've misinterpreted what you've said, but by 'legitimate ways of dealing with the problem', I assume you mean the powers that police and parents have. I'm not an expert on the differences in laws between European governments, but I would have thought that across the UK and Europe, those were broadly the same. If anything, there's probably greater scope in British law to deal with 'hooliganism' than there is on the continent.

Ah, on the contrary: I'm saying that the UK should have different rules from other countries, not least those in the EU, that are specific for its needs.

By "legitimate ways...", I mean I partially blame the trend toward issuing "warnings" and "notices" and such for the increase in problems.

I agree there is more scope in Brtish Law to deal with hooliganism - "ASBOs" are very popular these days - but are these new fangled measures better than the practices that have served us well for decades? I'd say not.

[Mr Q]

Well, perhaps I've misinterpreted what you've said, but by 'legitimate ways of dealing with the problem', I assume you mean the powers that police and parents have. I'm not an expert on the differences in laws between European governments, but I would have thought that across the UK and Europe, those were broadly the same. If anything, there's probably greater scope in British law to deal with 'hooliganism' than there is on the continent.

Ah, on the contrary: I'm saying that the UK should have different rules from other countries, not least those in the EU, that are specific for its needs.

To my mind though, that sort of of exceptionist stance assumes that somehow Britons are more prone to acting violently or criminally than others in the world, and hence need stricter laws. I'm not sure that's true.