Website Help Needed aka Chris Denham Business Masterclass

[cdd]

Would you agree however that a good product sells itself?

Wow, Chris. Why did I and the 3 million other businesses in the UK not think of this before?

I can now get rid of my sales staff. So can every other company. All we have to do is take orders over the phone now!!!

Thanks for that!

For those not living on Chris's planet, virtually everything of any value has to be sold at some time to someone, especially in business. A thing called competition exists in the world, and one company has to prove to a buyer why his or her product or service is better than everyone else's.

If I created a potion that made one look 20 years younger, even if I *HID* that product if someone found out about it I'd have people rushing to me... all the power of Word of Mouth. A much more... reputable... marketing technique.

Just think of all the millions being wasted by those stupid cosmetic companies on adverts and samples.

God, Chris, you are a true business guru! Let me worship at your feet!

Your recipe for success is never to advertise and hope you can grow business on the strength of one person endorsing a product to death to their friends so that they might just, at some undetermined point in the future, get in touch!

I'm going to get rid of my website, my fax adverts, press advertising, outsourced telesales companies and email marketing. I'm wasting all that money (even though they are profitable!). I'm just going to sit by the phone, tossing myself off waiting for it to ring!!!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Fax marketing is the most heavily regulated form of marketing in the UK. It's a very expensive business to get into, and requires a team of data specialists and technicians to make it work. A bit more reputable than other forms of marketing.

Now if I didn't konw better I'd say I detect the slightest touch of sarcasm there.

Basically I'm talking idealistic. The above text supports my statement. For a company to need to promote something so heavily what it's selling can't be that good in the first place. People shouldn't need to be enticed by free watches or freefone numbers or whatever.

As you acknowledge good products will easily find their way into the open. However, only a small percentage of products are "revolutionry" per se. Most of it is reinvention with heavy advertising and aggressive marketing. I'm sure you'll have seen adverts for, for example, Colgate Oxygen -- heck, it's just air, absolute rubbish. Hence, it needs to be marketed so heavily.

I don't deny marketing WORKS. If it didn't work, companies obviously wouldn't spend money doing it. However I do feel that it is immoral and a way to "jump to the top" without putting in the effort. People buy products because they think they will be useful and if this message needs to be constantly reinforecd by paid-for promotion how can such a product be good?

Looking through your "testimonials" section of your web site, I can see companies like mobile phone companies. Frankly there's nothing different between them; if there was such a difference it would promote itself through a wonderful business opportunity (for the honest) known as "word of mouth".

I have a theory that all this marketing cancels out eventually. Companies create campaigns which provokes others to create them and that results in the net effect of no campaigns.

[cdd]

Are you thinking about those diet/holiday/ringtone type faxes, Nick?

I'm talking around five years ago and about those awful "Do you know the colour of Dot's hair in last night's episode of EastEnders, if so fax the answer back to 09xxx-xxxxxx at £10 a minute and stand a (very remote) chance of winning the star prize of a pot of hand cream worth 35p".

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

As I understand it, they sort of died out a couple of years ago. We've only ever had 5 customers who tried something like that with us.

I'm bombarded with at least 2 a week nowadays!

[johnnyboy]

Basically I'm talking idealistic. The above text supports my statement. For a company to need to promote something so heavily what it's selling can't be that good in the first place. People shouldn't need to be enticed by free watches or freefone numbers or whatever.

Another absurd statement.

Whenever any company launches any new product or service, significant sums are invested in everything - from R&D, to testing, to checking systems. In the case of a small business, the owner has probably sacrificied a steady wage to make a fist of it on his or her own.

After such an expenditure of money, time and effort, you have to get your company's name, product and service known.

On your stupid freephone comment, there is now a website devoted to 'boycotting' or 'circumventing' 0870 numbers. They cost no more than 7p per minute at peak time. If people get touchy about that, are you surprised so many firms, my own included, go down the freephone route?

The freephone number might be the difference between getting an enquiry and not getting an enquiry.

There is no such thing as idealism in business. It's a daily fight to make a profit, pay everyone what they're due and do the best job possible. Where do you get these wierd ideas from?

As you acknowledge good products will easily find their way into the open.

Trying reading for content, Chris. I never made any statement alluding to anything like that.

Do you think the iPOD just slipped into people's consciousnesses, or do you think it might have something to do with multi-million pound marketing campaigns to secure an edge over the competition? Ridiculous.

However, only a small percentage of products are "revolutionry" per se. Most of it is reinvention with heavy advertising and aggressive marketing. I'm sure you'll have seen adverts for, for example, Colgate Oxygen -- heck, it's just air, absolute rubbish. Hence, it needs to be marketed so heavily.

There is an old adage in business that you should only do what other companies are already doing, as they have proved a market exists for it. If you launch something brand new or a novel twist on a new idea, millions still have to be spent on them.

It may work out successful (eg Dyson), or a flop (Sinclair C5s).

There is another old adage that it is the 'sizzle that sells the sausage'. Can I ask for your chemistry qualifications to make an assertion that Colgate Oxygen is not better at doing what it does that other types of toothpaste?

Could you confidently make a statement to that effect and show evidence? Or could it actually be another step forward in tooth-brushing, as it were?

No, your fingers have done the talking before your brain engages once again.

I don't deny marketing WORKS. If it didn't work, companies obviously wouldn't spend money doing it. However I do feel that it is immoral and a way to "jump to the top" without putting in the effort. People buy products because they think they will be useful and if this message needs to be constantly reinforecd by paid-for promotion how can such a product be good?

I'm completely lost with that one. You keep on promoting a product or a service to keep it in the public mind.

Competition is ready at a moment's notice to take your business away from you. Marketing is one of the ways you remind customers that you are there.

Looking through your "testimonials" section of your web site, I can see companies like mobile phone companies. Frankly there's nothing different between them; if there was such a difference it would promote itself through a wonderful business opportunity (for the honest) known as "word of mouth".

What is it with you and common sense?

Why does a product have to be 'revolutionary' to make it worthwhile? Why shouldn't one mobile phone company promote its products to try to win business? What exactly is your issue with that?

And what exactly constitutes an 'honest' marketing policy? Are you suggesting that every single one of my customer is in someway dishonest in their advertising because they use fax?

I have a theory that all this marketing cancels out eventually. Companies create campaigns which provokes others to create them and that results in the net effect of no campaigns.

You have no idea. There is plenty of evidence that the number of companies competing for business actually increases the size of the marketplace, because it drives prices down.

This would not happen if it were not for marketing.

What have you been smoking, child?

[cdd]

It's the general point, however, I'm trying to convey. You appear to be arguing the cause that "marketing works" -- of course it does, businesses wouldn't do it if it didn't. What I do say, however, is that the whole need to aggressively promote products to consumers shows that there is negligible difference between said products. It is undeniable that, if a product really were so great, it would "easily find its way into the open" (as stated in an earlier post). Again I'm not saying that freefone numbers, fax marketing, etc, generates sales, but it seems.... well, immoral.... that this kind of thing needs to be done. The products can't really be very good if they need to be promoted so aggressively -- for a company to need to promote it should be (but is not always) underperforming sales targets.

[johnnyboy]

It's the general point, however, I'm trying to convey. You appear to be arguing the cause that "marketing works" -- of course it does, businesses wouldn't do it if it didn't. What I do say, however, is that the whole need to aggressively promote products to consumers shows that there is negligible difference between said products.

Chris, but there isn't that much difference!

There are two main strata of marketing. Business-to-business and business-to-consumer.

Businesses sell their products to as many other businesses as possible. This is called WHOLESALE.

The companies who have bought the products must then attempt to persuade Joe and Jo Public to get that product through them and not their competitors. This is called RETAIL.

I know your answer to this is to sit by and wait for the phone to ring because 'marketing is immoral'. This is quite frankly idiotic.

It is undeniable that, if a product really were so great, it would "easily find its way into the open" (as stated in an earlier post).

Name three products that have done this.

Again I'm not saying that freefone numbers, fax marketing, etc, generates sales, but it seems.... well, immoral.... that this kind of thing needs to be done. The products can't really be very good if they need to be promoted so aggressively -- for a company to need to promote it should be (but is not always) underperforming sales targets.

You idiot. You just can't read for content.

The reason companies market their products and service is because they compete with other companies for orders.

A capitalistic economy relies on the exchange of something for another, ie money. For a customer to spend their money with a vendor, they have to feel as if they are getting value. If they don't feel a vendor is offering a good price or service, there are plenty of others that would welcome the opportunity to try to serve that customer.

Having companies constantly competing against each other lowers prices and improves services. The way this is communicated to customers is through marketing.

I used to respect your intelligence, Chris, but you have shown a complete intellectual failing on presenting and explaining your thoughts on this most simple of subjects. And you can't read for content at all.

[Gavin Scott]

Chris I'm also baffled and astonished that you suggest that marketing, freephone numbers and so on are "immoral".

The company I work for have a turnover of millions upon millions of pounds. Although we are in a specialist field, we do have competition. In many ways there is nothing between us and our competitors. In fact, many members of staff stay within the field and hop from company to company.

In a meeting this morning, I suggested adding the standard STD telephone numbers to our literature underneath the 0870 numbers we normally publish. A small point, but one which (from experience here and elsewhere) I recognise to be a reason NOT to contact us when making enquiries. A freephone number might be another option.

There is nothing immoral about this. There is nothing immoral about having special offer mailshots. Nothing immoral about running loss-leading promotions. Nothing immoral about cold-calling potential professional customers.

Chris, what line of business are you in that you think both "good" products and services "sell themselves"? I could extol the virtues of my company for many hours, and you might still choose to spend your money on the same kit from another vendor.

Basically I'm talking idealistic. For a company to need to promote something so heavily what it's selling can't be that good in the first place. People shouldn't need to be enticed by free watches or freefone numbers or whatever.

I'm not sure what you are talking, but it's not common sense.

All products are marketed. The biggest selling soft drink in the world also has one of the largest advertising budgets.

[Nick Harvey]

I suggested adding the standard STD telephone numbers to our literature underneath the 0870 numbers we normally publish.

Well done.

[Gavin Scott]

I suggested adding the standard STD telephone numbers to our literature underneath the 0870 numbers we normally publish.

Well done.

I was thinking of you at the time, Nick.

I kid you not.

[cdd]

Well, if there WERE only one mobile phone company (theoretical), that company's service would sell itself. Again I'm talking idealistically and theoretically, because, in business, the sad fact is that successful ideas are always reinvented by some other company almost immediately. I don't disagree that advertising works (I think I said that up there somewhere). I only disagree with the ethics of, for example, cold-calling, faxing, mailing, billboard advertising, etc. However you look at it, it's aggressive marketing.

I'm surprised that people have extrapolated from my posts that I feel freefone numbers are "immoral". They are, if you will, passive, as opposed to active, foot-in-the-door marketing.

Admit it, when you get a leaflet through the door for a pizza place, what do you do? Jump around with excitement? No, of course not. You throw it in the bin, along with the other 99% of people. Everyone's tolerance with marketing -- in whatever form -- is rather slight. If you wanted a pizza, you would find a pizza place of your own accord. (Granted, that's a slightly incorrect example given that lots of people place it on the kitchen table and then stumble across it some time later -- but that doesn't take away from the main point)!

Something tells me I'm communicating on a different wavelength to you so may I ask that you briefly reconsider the above points? It's rather difficult to describe these things through a delayed medium like this. I'm fairly sure I've said things to this effect in about three previous posts, and from what I can see, this discussion appears to be going round in circles... maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[cdd]

By the way, I do agree that marketing can be right in situations where consumers are "on the edge" between buying something and not buying something. To an extent, yes, this does involve that induced by competition but that harks back to my original arguemnt that the product being sold isn't "original", and is instead reinvented following one communal idea with minor differences; a clear-cut superior would be spotted immediately.

[Jamez]

Admit it, when you get a leaflet through the door for a pizza place, what do you do? Jump around with excitement?

Yes. And then I pin it onto the notice board in the hallway along with other vital leaflets which I find useful.

If a new pizza restaurant / pub / club etc. opens and we get a leaflet, then the chances are I'm going to go along to see what it's like.

If those places didn't advertise their new services, then I wouldn't find out about them. I don't read a newspaper and I don't waste my time looking at local notice boards, so leaflets and mailshots are one of the main forms of advertising I receive.

I don't respond to spam email, but I am more likely to respond to a phyisical leaflet which is put through my door which I can read while I'm making breakfast or lunch (depending on what time I get up!!).

Quite honestly, Chris, it seems you've dug yourself into one fucker of a hole, and you are being stupid and stubborn by not acknowledging that you are talking complete bollocks.