Election 2005

[johnnyboy]

It is a perpetual myth - propagated by the arseholes at the NFU - that farmers are all poor and cannot afford to live.

Of course, the Tories would withdraw us from the EU given half the chance, kill off CAP (which, on the contrary, helps a lot of farmers by giving trade breaks) and then we'd see real poverty.

As much as I'd hate to see poverty in rural Britain, can we really justify the CAP as a trade barrier to the third-world producers who are poorer than a British farmer beyond imagination.

Although I am not an 'arsehole' from the NFU, the fact is that farm prices for all produce have slumped in the last ten years due to pressure applied mainly by the supermarkets.

[cat]

I think you've just proved my point yet again!

You claim to know about politics, and then claim that all the parties are 'as bad as each other'. You're about as well informed as a Daily Mail reader.

I also illustrated your serious lack of knowledge in another post, which I notice you've managed to ignore. I wonder why.

And, misshellfire, you're 100% right. It is always those who don't bother to go out and vote and don't bother to get themselves informed on issues who go and complain about them. They're the people who delay progress in this country, not politicians.

The truth is though that the parties are broadly similar on most policies, albeit with some minor differences and, in a couple of instances, major.

Ever since the polarisation of politics ended when Labour became New Labour, each of the three main parties are centrist.

Whoever the incumbent Government is, the opposition parties pledge to match or slightly increase the funding of the public services.

As soon as a policy or proposed policy finds favour with a significant section of the newspapers, the other parties either copy it or say they will do the same but better/harder/cheaper/etc.

The differences are so slight now that an Old Labour person feels cheated by New Labour's lurch to the right, an old Tory feels cheated by the new Tory's increasing lurches to the left, and the Liberal Democrats are still a centrist party (despite the odd 'left-wing' policy for show).

There is a real democratic deficit in the UK. How can three supposedly different parties agree that the right amount of GDP to take in taxes is arou d 38-41%. Hardly much of a choice.

The truth is that the more people who vote, the more this corrupted system of debate is legitimised.

Is there a solution to this? Probably not.

But you'd have to skipping through the valley of make-believe to really think that things would be that much different under the Tories or under the Lib Dems.

It's a choice between salted crisps, slightly more salted crisps, and ever so slightly more salted crisps.

On CAP firstly - sure, I agree that it's absolutely damaging to the 3rd world, and wouldn't try and suggest otherwise. But it does, as a result, massively help farmers in the EU.

I just found it a little hypocritical to hear someone say:

Farmers are poor = Vote Tory, without making the link that voting Tory = get out of Europe = quit CAP = poorer farmers in the UK.

On the other point, I agree that we're in a period of alignment, and that probably explains - coupled to the fact that at the last two elections everyone thought Tony would win - why turnout is down. But there are still fundamental policy differences between the three.

The trouble is that the differences are not quite as clear as they have been in the past, hence voter confusion.

Personally, I feel 'safe' with Labour. I don't think everything is going swimmingly, but I think it's going pretty well and slow progress is better than the no progress that the Tories made. It's on that basis that i'll be voting for them. Also don't want to put myself out of a job, but still.

[tvmercia]

the fact is that farm prices for all produce have slumped in the last ten years due to pressure applied mainly by the supermarkets.

indeed - and the public are the ones who are pressuring the supermarkets. the same public who want good, fast service, good quality food and change from a £20 note.

in the same way organisations, companies, councils and the government are starting to evaluate whether projects are value for money - i think perhaps the governement ought to evaluate what exactly it is we are getting back from the european union that could not be achieved with simple trade agreements.

[johnnyboy]

Personally, I feel 'safe' with Labour. I don't think everything is going swimmingly, but I think it's going pretty well and slow progress is better than the no progress that the Tories made. It's on that basis that i'll be voting for them. Also don't want to put myself out of a job, but still.

I'm a bit jealous of that, cat. I'd love to feel 'safer' with a party, but I think my desire and willingness to make the leap of faith died with Tony.

The first big blow was the abolition of student grants and the later introduction of top-up fees. I never ever though a Labour government would do this. I was Disgusted from Tunbridge Wells when they did that.

Education is a right, and an investment in a nation's future. What's the point in spending all that money up until the age of 18, investing in a person's future, only to charge them £10Ks for the privelege of taking that education to its logical conclusion.

I'm a right-winger on many issues, but on other issues I am very left wing. A Labour government doing this? I still went to Uni when there were grants and left with only £4K worth of debts. Nowadays, it's a multiple of that, and it's just not fair or right.

I'm like everyone else when it comes to paying taxes - I do it through gritted teeth. But we're all in this together as a nation and we should pay through taxes to make sure we have an educated and advanced country.

The second was the pensions raid. £5bn is 'stolen' out of private pension funds every year. If state pensions are to be a thing of the past soon, at least make sure that whatever a person saves they can have at retirement.

And thirdly, Iraq. I could go into the multiple reasons why, but I don't want to bore you all.

The thing that upsets me, cat, is that I can't help feeling that, no matter who was in power, those three things would have eventually happened anyway.

I admire your optimism, and wish I could lose my cynicism.

[Mich]

It is a perpetual myth - propagated by the arseholes at the NFU - that farmers are all poor and cannot afford to live.

Of course, the Tories would withdraw us from the EU given half the chance, kill off CAP (which, on the contrary, helps a lot of farmers by giving trade breaks) and then we'd see real poverty.

As much as I'd hate to see poverty in rural Britain, can we really justify the CAP as a trade barrier to the third-world producers who are poorer than a British farmer beyond imagination.

Although I am not an 'arsehole' from the NFU, the fact is that farm prices for all produce have slumped in the last ten years due to pressure applied mainly by the supermarkets.

Quite, the CAP is an absolute disgrace. The average family will pay around £10 per week in higher food bills, for what? Some farmers to get very, very rich and some to barely survive. THe CAP was introduced to ensure food supplies, maintain the rural way of life, to maintain stable prices and to improve productivity of farming.

Now our aims are different, yes we need the original aims to be satisfied but in a different way. Protection of the rural way of life should mean protection of the land. The reform of the CAP is badly needed, and finally the EU are starting to look at it.


But back to the General Election, I plan to once again abstain, I have an interest in voting, as a relatively educated and politically aware member of society I see it as something that is very important. However the main three parties to me are a disgrace; the Tories are still a shambles they need to reform entirely to be electable, Labour have shown themselves via Blair to be very dubious (only their management of the Economy and the shambles of opposition are keeping their position safe; the news of the postal vote rigging has done nothing to improve their position in my mind) and the Lib Dems are as always a wasted vote (i'd seriously consider them if their pro EU stance was reconsidered.

As an aside why did UK Independance candidate stand for the European Parliament? I can understand them standing for the Commons, but do they actually have any polices to put forward in Europe considering they wouldn't be there is they had their way!

[James Martin]

Tories get my vote.

Give me 3 good reasons why.

Thatcher for a start. Slag her off till the cows come home but you cannot deny that 1990 saw Britian in a much better state than it was in 1979. Ruthless, yes. But she did what she had to do.

Second reason - James Callaghan. Well if peeps are saying Maggie's a reason not to vote Tory now then I'm fair in saying Callaghan's a reason not to vote Labour...

Third reason - Top up fees

Let's not also forget the firefighter's strike, the fuel crisis and some war in 2003 which really wasn't our war to fight.

Blair also kisses Bush's ass.

[Jamez]

I think that many people still vote for Labour because it is headed by Tony.
People still believe in him, and admitedly, he does come across as quite likeable.

Imagine if Blair decided in 2 years from now to quit early, and John Prescott took over as leader and as PM. The day that happens, I will leave the country.

Blair in charge - I don't mind (however, I would prefer a Conservative PM, obviously)

Presscott / Brown in charge - Where's me passport?!?!

[Square Eyes]

On a completely separate note, Labour do have a bit of a garish morning press conference stage don't they ? It's bright pink. I was half expecting Tony to step up in Jordan's Eurovision outfit.

[Lorns]

As a woman i won't bore you all and bang on about the suffragettes. You will understand why it is important to me to vote.
If you're a woman Mich - Hang your head in shame-

I try to make an effort every few years to get intersted in politics before i cast my vote and that means looking into the policies of other parties standing for election. However if i'm still uncertain at the point if putting that X in the box i will be thinking better the devil you know and Tone will get it again.

[Anonymous]

Tories get my vote.

Give me 3 good reasons why.

1. Lower unemployment.(Don,t forget 7 million people are currently unemployed in the UK.)
2. Lower taxes.
3. A properly funded NHS.

[Johnny]

Thatcher privatised nearly everything. She wanted to do the NHS but her party members wanted here out so she quitted instead.

John Major privatised British Rail & it is now in even more mess than ever.

To think the Tories will cut taxes is laughable. The fact that I have a Tory Council (London Borough of Redbridge - Ilford South never used to be but thanks to IDS we ended up with them) & the fact the council tax has gone up AGAIN makes Redbridge a dear London Borough to live in.

Howard was part of the OLD Tory Government which some people seem to forget.

My dad worked for Eastern Electricity & had to retire at 49 mainly due to ridiculous work reforms there.

The fact that Labour have only been in for 7/8 years & the Tories were in for 18/19 years means Labour WONT turn it around directly.

Although my parents wont ever vote Tory. My decision to vote Labour is my own. I have though about Lib Dem but always get put off.

The only thing Labour did that effected me/Didn't like was the War but you can't base everythin gon that (although my mate is not voting Labour this time for this reason only)

I hope Labour do get in & if they don't the Lib Dems.

My personal predicition for Tories is thusly:

*Taxes still rise
*Cuts in investment to services
*No NHS or Reduced NHS
*London Underground FULLY Privatised instead of PPP (Although they may reverse the PPP decision considering what Metronet have been up to today)
*No real changes (typical of any party)