Pope-ing his clogs

When will the Pope die?

Tonight
1
3%
Tomorrow Morning
0
No votes
Tomorrow Afternoon
0
No votes
Friday
3
9%
The weekend
5
16%
Next week
5
16%
Not this time
18
56%
 
Total votes: 32
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Gavin Scott
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CJ_Cregg wrote:The Church's teaching on homosexuality is based on the dignity of Man. The Church does not discriminate against homosexuals, it deplores any unjust discrimination against them.
You can say they "deplore discrimination", but the evidence is very contradictory to your statement. You might want to walk a mile in another's shoes before you make such a claim.
As for having sex. Why are you placing so much emphasis on sex? Do we all have a right to have sex whenever we want, wherever we want, with whomever we want? Is the government 'evil' for not allowing 16 year olds to have sex? What about people in incestuous relationships- is that OK?
You draw a parallel between victims of abuse and consenting adults, do you? That shows your attitude to be glib and offensive. And you say that you "deplore discrimination"? Don't make me laugh.
Not everyone is meant to have sex, is what the Church says. It’s a gift.
A gift to 'those and such as those', presumably. Listen here - I was born this way, with these organs and these desires. I do not require the Church's consent to have consenting relations with other men, nor do I seek their approval. My eyes are a gift, as are my legs, brain and hair (although there's not much be thankful for there). Why would any one organ be provided if it was no there to be used?
To reject it is your choice, but I repeat, just because you don’t understand something, doesn’t make it wrong.
I understand it but disagree with it. I am not wrong.
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marksi
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As I said before, the Church bases her teaching on Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition was transmitted through the Apostles and members of the Church until Scriptures were compiled (by the Church). She decides how to interpret Scripture in light of Tradition. That way nobody makes mistakes, like stoning children to death.
A tradition has to start somewhere. Therefore at some point it was a contemporary view. Why is the church (not just the Catholic church, though it's probably the best example) so afraid of change? Why does it decide that some "traditions" should be abandoned (stoning adulterers) yet others not (discrimination against gay people)? You're now saying that the church's "teaching" is based on opinions and what can only be described as Chinese Whispers. Surely that can't be a solid foundation for anything much.

Are you saying that as I was born gay I do not have a right to have sex? This all starts to unravel a bit when you start pulling at threads.

Oh, and CJ, you still haven't answered my question.
CJ-Cregg
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A tradition has to start somewhere. Therefore at some point it was a contemporary view. Why is the church (not just the Catholic church, though it's probably the best example) so afraid of change? Why does it decide that some "traditions" should be abandoned (stoning adulterers) yet others not (discrimination against gay people)? You're now saying that the church's "teaching" is based on opinions and what can only be described as Chinese Whispers. Surely that can't be a solid foundation for anything much.
Sacred Tradition is based on Christ's teachings transmitted through the Apostles. The Church believes it cannot err on such matters as faith and morals, since Christ promised to be with His Church until the end of time. Chinese Whispers it ain't.
The Scriptures have to be interpreted by the Church in light of Tradition, hence the reason the Church defends life and doesn't propose we execute all criminals (eg. Adulterers under the Jewish law).

The Church teaches that homosexuals should live in Holy chastity as should all unmarried people. This chastity liberates them and allows them to live in Christ love until he comes again. Living a Christian life is by no means easy- Christ himself told us that, but just because it’s difficult, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. The Church means no offence when it reiterates the Church’s teaching on morals, in this particular case homosexual activity. You all seem to be expressing anger towards the Church and in particular the present Pope- which is radically different from merely expressing a lack of understanding or agreement with the Christian faith.
Condoms are not 100% effective. They are, however, more effective than telling people not to have sex - or do you disagree?
How do you know they're more effective? Of course abstinence would wipe-out AIDS!

In his encyclical, Pope Paul VI wrote:

“the Church is competent in her magisterium to interpret the natural moral law. It is in fact indisputable, as Our predecessors have many times declared, that Jesus Christ, when He communicated His divine power to Peter and the other Apostles and sent them to teach all nations His commandments, constituted them as the authentic guardians and interpreters of the whole moral law, not only, that is, of the law of the Gospel but also of the natural law. For the natural law, too, declares the will of God, and its faithful observance is necessary for men's eternal salvation.”

Refering to condoning the widespread use of contraceptions He said:
“this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law.”

“a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and …reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires.”

Basically, the Holy Father thought that the free distribution of condoms would only promote promiscuity, abortion, infidelity and so on. That was in ’64. Did it? Yes! Who said the Pope/Church was out of touch?
Dr Lobster*
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CJ_Cregg wrote:The Church teaches that homosexuals should live in Holy chastity as should all unmarried people.

and that supports my theory that almost all people in the church are sexually dysfunctional - living in 'holy chastity' is simply unnatural and unhealty.

homosexual behaviour has been observed in my different species, many of them not high-order primates or mammals, so it seems, homosexuality is as natural as blue eyes or big feet.

the fact that homosexual sex does not produce offspring is irrelevent in your argument, since it assumes that it is a desired outcome.
Basically, the Holy Father thought that the free distribution of condoms would only promote promiscuity, abortion, infidelity and so on. That was in ’64. Did it? Yes! Who said the Pope/Church was out of touch?
are you serious? humans are promiscuious by default. its only society and the church that inflicts its morals upon us. its got nothing to do with the distribution of free condoms.

what i fail to understand, and none of you bible bashing drones have been able to answer this question, but if your so-called god finds these behavours so unacceptable, and hes all powerful like you reckon, why did he create creatures that even have the ability to become homosexual in the first place? given that your so-called god created the earth, and every single creature that lives on this planet, why is it so difficult for him to revoke the ability for humans to exhibit homosexual behavours? it makes no sense.

the reason it makes no sense is because the whole thing is bollocks. but hey, if you need to believe it to make you feel better, go for it.
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Nick Harvey
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CJ_Cregg wrote:The Church teaches that homosexuals should live in Holy chastity as should all unmarried people.
Best not to ask too much about Catholic Priests and choirboys, then, eh?
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Pete
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CJ_Cregg wrote:
A tradition has to start somewhere. Therefore at some point it was a contemporary view. Why is the church (not just the Catholic church, though it's probably the best example) so afraid of change? Why does it decide that some "traditions" should be abandoned (stoning adulterers) yet others not (discrimination against gay people)? You're now saying that the church's "teaching" is based on opinions and what can only be described as Chinese Whispers. Surely that can't be a solid foundation for anything much.
Sacred Tradition is based on Christ's teachings transmitted through the Apostles. The Church believes it cannot err on such matters as faith and morals, since Christ promised to be with His Church until the end of time. Chinese Whispers it ain't.
Yes but how come it can err and um on stoning adulterers?
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marksi
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CJ Cregg:
How do you know they're more effective? Of course abstinence would wipe-out AIDS!
You are avoiding answering the question. I'll try and make it simpler for you.

Currently the Catholic Church refuses to condone the use of condoms. People are going to have sex whether or not the church tells them not to, but as a result of the edicts of the church condoms are not nearly as widely available in Africa as they should be. People are therefore having more *unprotected* sex (not more sex) than they would if the church said that using condoms was ok.

Taking this to it's logical conclusion, more people have become infected with HIV than would be infected with the disease if the church had not objected to the use of condoms as ONE TOOL in the fight against this disease.

If you'd like me to take it a little further still, I think it's possible for me to extract from all this that the actions of the present Pope in condemning the use of condoms, has resulted in the deaths of many, many people, including a large number of children. Is your tangle of ancient whispers more important than people's lives?

You appear to have an "all or nothing" approach to this subject. I'm not saying that if the Pope told all Catholics tomorrow to use condoms that HIV would be eradicated. Of course it wouldn't. It would however help. Even if it helped ONE SINGLE PERSON it would be worthwhile.

Has that made sense to you?
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marksi
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CJ's gone a bit quiet...
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Nick Harvey
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marksi wrote:CJ's gone a bit quiet.
We didn't upset him, surely?

Perhaps he's a choirboy?
CJ-Cregg
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Sorry about the radio silence.

I wasn't sure to what degree you guys wanted to discuss this. Some folk are grumbling that it's all I talk about. But you have to start somewhere.
According to 'World' magazine, a report in the British medical journal Lancet warns that "increased condom use will increase the number of (HIV/AIDS) transmissions that result from condom failures."

Dr. John Richens and his fellow physicians at London’s University College agree, warning that condom use discourages the kind of changes in lifestyle that are needed to prevent the spread of AIDS.

They insist that "a vigorous condom promotion policy could increase rather than decrease unprotected sexual exposure if it has the unintended effect of encouraging a greater overall level of sexual activity."

Amazingly, the African nation with the lowest level of AIDS is Uganda, where the main thrust in the fight against the disease has been promotion of abstinence.

"Essentially, the Ugandan people have been told that if they don’t go looking for the disease they won’t get it," World reports.

"The message we’ve tried to give people is that AIDS kills, so what do you do to avoid getting it?" Ugandan health official Tayebwa Katureebe told World.

"First you abstain from sex. If you cannot abstain, stick to one partner. If you can’t stick to one partner, then you have to use a condom. But be sure that condoms are not 100 percent effective."
Still no statisfied, read http://catholiceducation.org/articles/s ... e0105.html

Answser the questioned posed in that article.
CJ-Cregg
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Currently the Catholic Church refuses to condone the use of condoms.
Not just currently- always.
People are going to have sex whether or not the church tells them not to,
That may well be true, but that’s their decision. The Church helps people make the right decision.
but as a result of the edicts of the church condoms are not nearly as widely available in Africa as they should be.
That’s rubbish! You have no idea of the role of the Church in the world, clearly! The UN and individual states are doing a good enough job distributing condoms/propoganda.
People are therefore having more *unprotected* sex (not more sex) than they would if the church said that using condoms was ok.
Proof of this is where?
Taking this to it's logical conclusion,
There is one?
more people have become infected with HIV than would be infected with the disease if the church had not objected to the use of condoms as ONE TOOL in the fight against this disease.
No- taking your argument to the logical conclusion, if people don’t listen to the Church saying “Don’t be promiscuous and abstain entirely from sex if you’ll infect someone with a terminal disease” why would they respond if they adopted the superficial approach now being tried in places like you mention?
If you'd like me to take it a little further still,


Must you?
I think it's possible for me to extract from all this that the actions of the present Pope in condemning the use of condoms, has resulted in the deaths of many, many people, including a large number of children.
Had the advice of the Holy Father been followed, there wouldn’t have been such a problem. So, you’re being just a tad hysterical there. Is the UN responsible for their deaths too? Are you, for not lobbying the government to send you over to Africa with 80million condoms to dole out like Popsicles?
Is your tangle of ancient whispers more important than people's lives?
Assuming you’re referring to Scared Tradition, I can tell you that that’s about people’s lives- not just their earthly life, but their eternal life with God in Heaven.
You appear to have an "all or nothing" approach to this subject. I'm not saying that if the Pope told all Catholics tomorrow to use condoms that HIV would be eradicated. Of course it wouldn't. It would however help. Even if it helped ONE SINGLE PERSON it would be worthwhile.
But you said earlier nobody listens to the Church!
Has that made sense to you?
I’m sorry, but it’s nonsense you’re talking. The whole point of Tradition is ensuring the ‘here and now’ doesn’t become what we focus on, it doesn’t become everything we’re about. Changing Church teaching based on a few people’s misguided, baseless opinions would be madness!
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