PLEASE, PLEASE, Help.... SERIOUS.

[Gavin Scott]

Lets calm down a little, and let me make my earlier comments clear:

Jenny didn't break any rules per se, and I defend her right to make flippant comments with scant regard where she sees fit (although personally I'm not keen on her anti 'marksi' stance - but that's not for here...).

The exception being (surely?) that in the case of a death in the family we, being the ragbag community we are, show a touch of, if not respect; restraint.

None of us are entitled to this, I just thought it would be nice.

Now I'm exhausted and just want a hug from Dan.

[DAS]

Jenny, dear; there are *some* moments when you have to curb the acerbic comment on the tip of your tongue. This is one such occassion. I'm disappointed that you have forced me into moderating within this thread.

Exactly - I do NOT want a thread like this to dissolve into flippancy, acerbic comment or argument. Yes, religion says we should celebrate his life but nevertheless, people get very upset at the death of someone they've been married to for over 60 YEARS! My poor Grandmother (81) now has to face the world on her own - that's enough to daunt anyone, ESPECIALLY at her age!

ALL the family are having to adjust. I've lost a grandfather, my brother has lost his grandfather, my dad has lost his father and so on and so on. All have felt sadness, loss, grief, anxiety etc.. and have been through a massively emotionally straining ordeal, ESPECIALLY as a result of the way he died; in severe pain and in an Intensive Care Ward.

Why on EARTH could that poster not have just acted in the same, fully respectful way that all the others have? I will NOT let bickering and inappropriate verbiage be subservient to the TRUE INTENT of this thread! I am feeling very supported by others' condolences, and I am feeling disgusted and outraged that others could not have been more dignified and respectful in condolence!

Katherine, as much as I completely agree with you, I would like to make one small point. I was in EXACTLY the same position as you two months ago. My way of dealing with that didn't even figure Metropol or TV Forum - in fact, it figured nothing for a week or so.

You have decided to tell us all your experience, good for you. But this being a forum, and people hiding behind usernames, you run the risk of getting people like Jenny adding their unwanted, irrelevant and controversial opinions.

My advice to you would be to remember this, and ignore Jenny. She is quite clearly trying to provoke reaction as I see it, and it's perhaps best to ignore her.

All the best.

Now Gavin. I'm a Dan...

[Gavin Scott]

You are *the* Dan.

[DAS]

Ah, well that's nice to know. I'm not sure the other Dans would like my responsibility though.

[rts]

I was going to be called Dan. Honestly.

I'll let you work out why rents changed their mind.

[DAS]

LOL, very good. Though it would have been more obvious had you lived in Yorkshire.

[rts]

Mater was brought up in Swindon so she quickly realised, thank lord.

[Bail]

Funeral is a week on Tuesday, in Petersfield, Hampshire.

Near me, a lovely peaceful place is Petersfield. You have my condolences at your loss.

[Jenny]

Hold on a second, I was the ONLY person in this whole thread to actually take her religion seriously. Everybody else said "oh that's a bad thing", which is about as blunt a rejection of the most basic tenets of christianity as you can get.

Come off it Jenny. You weren't taking it seriously, you were taking the piss.

I wouldn't say "taking the piss" exactly. Of course I was mocking her beliefs, but I was doing it by extrapolating logically the consequences of believing in an afterlife as whoop-de-do as the one described by her religion. I've been to a few religious funerals and they do speak very highly of the state of being dead. Paradise, streets of gold, blah blah blah. And I looked around at all the people crying and thought "not only is this bollocks, but you all know it's bollocks. If you really believed all this, you'd be delighted". And let's face it, without the "reward" aspect, there's no point in believing any of the rest of it. If you don't believe in heaven, then the whole edifice crumbles (oooh, nice cliche).

I'm a great beleiver in that (goodness knows I've needled Kat enough myself), but there is a time and a place.

No. I don't accept that the comforting lie should have a free run at any point, especially this point - the exact point where religion moves in and preys on the insecure, feeding them cock-and-bull tales of immortality. I've always been very aware of my mortality, and it took me ages to figure out that other people weren't, that they blocked it from their minds as much as possible. And death is a fundamental - the fundamental - fact of, well, life. It's not nice, but there it is. So of course it angers me when institutions try to peddle the myth of immortality.

You don't honestly expect a Christian (or anyone) to be joyful when a relative they love dies, do you?

That depends on whether they genuinely believe in the afterlife or are just desperately clinging to the comforting lie because they can't stand to face up to the fact they're going to die and there's nothing awaiting them "on the other side". If they truly believed in the afterlife as described by centuries of christian tradition, then yes, I certainly would expect them to be joyful. That they don't truly believe it at least provides a glimmer of hope (oooh, another nice cliche!) that they have some inkling of reality, even if they do suppress it. You know the saying that "Man is the only animal to be aware of his own mortality"? Well, you do now. But I've always felt if was the wrong way round. Man is the only animal capable of denying his own mortality. It makes sense evolutonarily: combine large brain power with an instinct for survival, and of course man is going to try to "explain away" death. But we should have moved past that by now. We should have moved past it long ago.

We've made great progress in this country during my lifetime as regards religion. Twenty years ago, a random person picked off the street was C-of-E until proven otherwise. Now a random person picked off the street is No Organised Religion until proven otherwise. That's pretty good going. But there's still an inclination to view religion, and particularly christianity, as basically harmless. But the fact is, it's still lying to people about themselves, saying "no, it's OK, death isn't the end". If anything in human existence is truly evil (and yes, I accept that's a humungously big "if"), then peddling the immortality myth would have to be right up there. It's bad enough that people die, but being so reluctant to face it that you live a lie as well is doubly so. Or more.

It was a flippant remark in my view - and I'm usually pretty sharp at spotting them, if I say so myself.

Do not mistake my anger for flippancy. (That sounded very pretentious. Let's have another cliche to end on instead.)

Phew, what a scorcher!

[Col]

I'm very sorry to hear about the death of your grandfather, Katherine.

I hope you and your family circle can get through this time and that you hang on to the good memories you have had together.

[Katherine]

I wouldn't say "taking the piss" exactly. Of course I was mocking her beliefs, but I was doing it by extrapolating logically the consequences of believing in an afterlife as whoop-de-do as the one described by her religion.

How thoughtful... NOT! in a serious thread like this, there should be NO PLACE WHATSOEVER for mockery of belief, flippancy or anything else along those lines! I found your comments hurtful, insensitive, injudicious in the extreme and wholly unwarranted.

The only way we can know FOR SURE is by going through death ourselves, to see if there's anything on the other side.... until then I'd advise an open mind....