Scottish independence

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Gavin Scott
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martindtanderson wrote:I can't point to a specific speech of his, but I have heard him enough times during party conference season, and on shows like Question Time to know that he is either coasting on an anti-English feeling, or he is actively stirring it up.
I wouldn't get into a "what you feel is incorrect" argument, as it would be wrong of me; not to mention futile - you're perfectly within your right to listen to what he says and take an anti-English message from it.

But for what its worth, my perspective is very different. When I hear him speak I feel very encouraged and positive about the prospect of independence; and at the risk of sounding offensive, feelings toward the English or their reaction to this decision really aren't relevant to me. I know lots of folk assume this is some kind of "chip on the shoulder" thing - ironically the chip seems to be on the other shoulder - er.. its not always about England!

Whilst we're all the same under the skin - I'm sure we can stipulate to that - I feel that we do have different values and priorities from a political perspective; and that as a nation we're the best equipped to make those decisions for the benefit of our people. Best equipped to utilise our resources and abilities to create a successful Scotland.
I have nothing against Scotland wanting Independence, and to be honest I don't care enough either way to have a view on whether they should or should not go their own way. What annoys me is Alex Salmond's attitude, as well as the unfair nature of Scottish MPs voting for English (and sometimes Welsh) issues.
Well I certainly agree that Scotland shouldn't be voting on English and Welsh matters. 100% agree. All it really does is confirm that you are better at administering your own affairs as we are ours.

The challenge for the Yes campaign to some extent is to persuade people that a vote for independence isn't a vote for Mr Salmond or the SNP - and that we could easily return a coalition of Greens and Liberals or Tories and Raving Loonies if that's what the electorate want - something that simply isn't (or ever could be) mathematically possible with the UK system.

And as the south is apparently taking lurches towards the right with Conservative and UKIP support growing, with the opposite being true in Scotland, we face perhaps a decade more of a government we didn't select and policies we don't approve of.

On a purely personal level, and although it shouldn't, it hurts my feelings when I hear English friends dismiss something many Scots are passionate about with a throwaway comment about it being nothing more than anti-English piffle - or worse - "don't come crawling back when it all goes wrong".

My reasons to feel good about independence aren't a reflection of how I regard people south of the border, but out of ambition for the place I love.
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martindtanderson
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Gavin Scott wrote:...When I hear him speak I feel very encouraged and positive about the prospect of independence; and at the risk of sounding offensive, feelings toward the English or their reaction to this decision really aren't relevant to me. I know lots of folk assume this is some kind of "chip on the shoulder" thing - ironically the chip seems to be on the other shoulder - er.. its not always about England!

Whilst we're all the same under the skin - I'm sure we can stipulate to that - I feel that we do have different values and priorities from a political perspective; and that as a nation we're the best equipped to make those decisions for the benefit of our people. Best equipped to utilise our resources and abilities to create a successful Scotland.
I don't think you can sum up England as being Tory or Right Wing in its values. I personally detest Conservative values, and would consider myself a Leftie-Liberal. But not liking the present government is a poor reason to make a monumental change in the make-up of the nation IMO - Which is behind much of Salmond's campaigning (Those bits we see in England anyway).
Gavin Scott wrote:Well I certainly agree that Scotland shouldn't be voting on English and Welsh matters. 100% agree. All it really does is confirm that you are better at administering your own affairs as we are ours.

The challenge for the Yes campaign to some extent is to persuade people that a vote for independence isn't a vote for Mr Salmond or the SNP - and that we could easily return a coalition of Greens and Liberals or Tories and Raving Loonies if that's what the electorate want - something that simply isn't (or ever could be) mathematically possible with the UK system.
The whole independence campaign seems centred around Salmond, who comes across as irritable, angry, smug, and dislikeable, and centred on a shared dislike of the Tory party, who whilst being vile and pathetic, is not in permanent power, and could be gone in a few years time (please let this be true).

Gavin Scott wrote:And as the south is apparently taking lurches towards the right with Conservative and UKIP support growing, with the opposite being true in Scotland, we face perhaps a decade more of a government we didn't select and policies we don't approve of.
The mood of the country (nation/region) is a fickle thing, and perhaps a stronger devolution would be a better option than full and complete disintegration of the UK. Still dislike of the incumbent is not the best way to make such a decision.
Gavin Scott wrote: On a purely personal level, and although it shouldn't, it hurts my feelings when I hear English friends dismiss something many Scots are passionate about with a throwaway comment about it being nothing more than anti-English piffle - or worse - "don't come crawling back when it all goes wrong".

My reasons to feel good about independence aren't a reflection of how I regard people south of the border, but out of ambition for the place I love.
My comments about anti-English sentiment is specifically attributed to Alex Salmond personally. And I think the debate would be all the better if he was not heralding this campaign and vote. Not to all those who want independence. Specifically I have no strong view either way about whether they should or should not go their own way. Only that as a British citizen, in the United Kingdom. My opinion does not count for anything, and other people in England may show no passion, and have throw-away remarks, precisely because in this decision, we are ignored and our opinions will fall on deaf ears.
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Alexia
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IMHO, in the end, Scotland will vote narrowly against independence, probably 43-57 or something like that. This will give Salmond his perfect outcome - remaining part of the union with the benefits that entails whilst having a very strong case for demanding even more devolution and more powers transferred north of Hadrian's Wall.
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Gavin Scott
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martindtanderson wrote:The mood of the country (nation/region) is a fickle thing, and perhaps a stronger devolution would be a better option than full and complete disintegration of the UK.
Why better?
But not liking the present government is a poor reason to make a monumental change in the make-up of the nation IMO

The whole independence campaign seems centred around Salmond...and centred on a shared dislike of the Tory party

Still dislike of the incumbent is not the best way to make such a decision.
You can say it three times if you like, but it won't make it true. Yes, I'm keen to see the back of the current crop of tossers in Westminster - but that's not what's driving this campaign for independence. I've stated the positive ambition.

If you have 5 minutes, I'd like you to have glimpse of the manifesto the SNP put forward at the last election. If you momentarily put aside how you feel about Alex, I think you will see something you like.

http://votesnp.com/campaigns/SNP_Manife ... lowRes.pdf
Alexia wrote:IMHO, in the end, Scotland will vote narrowly against independence, probably 43-57 or something like that. This will give Salmond his perfect outcome - remaining part of the union with the benefits that entails whilst having a very strong case for demanding even more devolution and more powers transferred north of Hadrian's Wall.
:?:

I don't get it. Why would you think losing the referendum would be Alex's "perfect outcome"?
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WillPS
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Alexia isn't chatting shit.

It would lead to a mandate for further devloution and allow the Scottish government to maintain it's line of considerable funding from Westminster.
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Alexia
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WillPS wrote:Alexia isn't chatting shit.

It would lead to a mandate for further devloution and allow the Scottish government to maintain it's line of considerable funding from Westminster.

More or less. It would allow Salmond to continue being a relevant force in Scottish politics by pressing for more powers up to the limits of independence - a simplistic view is that after independence, the SNP just becomes another centre-left outfit fighting over the same narrow band of floating voters - whilst still reaping the benefits of being part of the UK as a whole.

Also, those of us with left leaning tendencies need the Scottish constituencies to help limit the nationwide Tory vote as much as possible.

HOWEVER - it must be said that personally, I've given up on Westminster parties and will be voting Plaid from now on.
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Gavin Scott
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WillPS wrote:Alexia isn't chatting shit.

It would lead to a mandate for further devloution and allow the Scottish government to maintain it's line of considerable funding from Westminster.
Scotland's contribution to Westminster is greater than the funding we receive.

You did realise that, yes?
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WillPS
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Gavin Scott wrote:
WillPS wrote:Alexia isn't chatting shit.

It would lead to a mandate for further devloution and allow the Scottish government to maintain it's line of considerable funding from Westminster.
Scotland's contribution to Westminster is greater than the funding we receive.

You did realise that, yes?
I should hope so too! Nottingham's contribution to Westminster will be greater than the funding they receive from Westminster. In fact, I rather hope that every region in the UK contributes more one way or another than they take - that's the point, surely?

Now, lets compare Nottingham again with a Scottish city - I'm going to say Dundee (without actually knowing if the two are comparable - but for the sake or argument, lets say they are). There's a lot more cash from Westminster which is working its way back up there, and this manifests itself in the form of free tuition fees, free prescriptions - shit like that. These aren't being made up with some sort of saving the Scottish government is able to make, they're being paid for by additional funding which is mainlined in to Holyrood.
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To be fair.

* Holyrood has been under spending it's overall budget.
* what people continue to whitewash is.... in the case of the nhs, Scotland does not get certain drugs which England gets. There are plenty of other cases. Our government is spending the money on what it believes is the best course of action, with the money it gets in the block grant.
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martindtanderson
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Gavin Scott wrote: If you have 5 minutes, I'd like you to have glimpse of the manifesto the SNP put forward at the last election. If you momentarily put aside how you feel about Alex, I think you will see something you like.
It doesn't matter what the SNP want, or get. I live in London, and do not have any plans to visit or move to Scotland.

It doesn't affect me, I don't get a say either way. I just hear SNP spokespeople on shows like Question Time, talking about "the government in Westminster", and "English rule" etc, and think its silly to even bring up the Conservatives when discussing the reasons for independence.
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Alexia wrote:Also, those of us with left leaning tendencies need the Scottish constituencies to help limit the nationwide Tory vote as much as possible.

HOWEVER - it must be said that personally, I've given up on Westminster parties and will be voting Plaid from now on.
It's totally valid that, without the Scottish (and Welsh) voters, Westminster would be much more safely Conservative led.

I think I'd be voting Plaid too, if I were on that side of the bridge. At least the Plaid leader hasn't been arrested today!
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