Riots

[concerned]

This is in referral to Ricky Gemmell. I know that people form their own opinion based on what they initially read in the media, something that I am definitely experiencing first hand at the moment.
I despise the riots, and what makes me despise them even more is the fact that my brother is currently in prison and has had his whole life destroyed whilst the real vandals, theifs and hooligans are still out there.
Let me give you some context of who ricky is, he has been in the cadets since he was 12 years old, he has had a job since he was 15. He has never claimed benefits or been in trouble with the law. He is 18 and on the day of his arrest he had completed a full days work at the telesales company he worked for fulltime. Does this sound like a mindless thug to you? Whilst I agree that these rioters need a tough reaction, my brother was in the wrong place at the wrong time, with a big gob.

He was stranded in town when the buses stopped running and was with a friend who was also spectating when riot police barged past them, ricky responded terribly by swearing at the officers and was arrested at approximately 5pm tuesday. He was initially charged with a standard public disorder defence for which he pleaded guilty. His 10am hearing was cancelled and at approx 2.30 we were told they were trying him with the looters and rioters and upping the charges to public disorder, section 4. He had ten minutes with his lawyer and he pleaded guilty to SOME not all of the charges. The lawyer was not even able to make a case being told to shut up by the judge who was no doubt intending on having a hard stance so that the rioters and looters are brought to justice.
But I am yet to see the justice, my brother is a good kid, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and got mouthy (for which he should be punished). He didn't vandalise, steal, hurt anyone or loot. He wasn't dressed in a hoodie or anything of the sort and was as disgusted by the riots as the next person. He had his whole life ahead of him and a good job but now he will be spending the next few months of his life in prison and his life is ruined. Is that not enough? Or do the press really have to villifie him, 'naming and shaming' as a thug and destroying his life by showing his picture on the news whilst the ACTUAL theives and vandals who tore up the streets of manchester are getting off scott free because they had intent and covered their faces. This is in referral to Ricky Gemmell. I know that people form their own opinion based on what they initially read in the media, something that I am definitely experiencing first hand at the moment.
I despise the riots, and what makes me despise them even more is the fact that my brother is currently in prison and has had his whole life destroyed whilst the real vandals, theifs and hooligans are still out there.
Let me give you some context of who ricky is, he has been in the cadets since he was 12 years old, he has had a job since he was 15. He has never claimed benefits or been in trouble with the law. He is 18 and on the day of his arrest he had completed a full days work at the telesales company he worked for fulltime. Does this sound like a mindless thug to you? Whilst I agree that these rioters need a tough reaction, my brother was in the wrong place at the wrong time, with a big gob.

He was stranded in town when the buses stopped running and was with a friend when riot police barged past them, ricky responded terribly by swearing at the officers and was arrested at approximately 5pm tuesday. I am not defending what he did, he should have kept himself to himself but had it not been for the panic the police force were experiencing he never would have been arrested. He was initially charged with a standard public disorder defence for which he pleaded guilty. His 10am hearing was cancelled and at approx 2.30 we were told they were trying him with the looters and rioters and upping the charges to public disorder, section 4. He had ten minutes with his lawyer and he pleaded guilty to SOME not all of the charges. The lawyer was not even able to make a case being told to shut up by the judge who was no doubt intending on having a hard stance so that the rioters and looters are brought to justice.
But I am yet to see the justice, my brother is a good kid, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and got mouthy (for which he should be punished). He didn't vandalise, steal, hurt anyone or loot. He wasn't dressed in a hoodie or anything of the sort and was as disgusted by the riots as the next person. He had his whole life ahead of him and a good job but now he will be spending the next few months of his life in prison and his life is ruined. Is that not enough? Or do the press really have to make a villain of him, 'naming and shaming' as a thug and destroying his life by showing his picture on the news whilst the ACTUAL theives and vandals who tore up the streets of manchester are getting off scott free because they had intent and covered their faces. Our family is disapointed and devastated right now and the ill informed opinions have already started. I just wish they would have scratched even a little of the surface regarding what sort of a person he is because now he's forever going to be tarnished with the same brush of these jobless morons destroying out cities.

[Beep]

He was initially charged with a standard public disorder defence for which he pleaded guilty.

Charged with a Public Order offence, S5/S4A most probably.

[all new Phil]

I'm a little disappointed in David Cameron's response to all this. Not in the whole being on holiday bit, because I think it was fair enough that he was away and he came back when it was obvious that this wasn't going away anytime soon. I just think that he could have been a bit more vocal in his condemnation, shown a bit more anger and the like. It would have gone down well and captured the mood of the public.

I don't know why but we're not very good at doing that in this country. We could learn a thing or two from the Australians.

I'm also surprised at how little we've heard from Ed Milliband. He's a waste of space at the best of times, but I thought he'd be all over this like he was on the phone hacking.

[Gavin Scott]

I'm also surprised at how little we've heard from Ed Milliband. He's a waste of space at the best of times, but I thought he'd be all over this like he was on the phone hacking.

I actually can't bear it when he looks down the lens of an interviewer's camera and says, "I think its right that the police yadda yadda... the public yadda yadda".

He leaps on so many bandwagons he must have splintered knees.

The thing is, I think he probably means every word - so why does he sound so disingenuous about it?

His adenoids and his squint mouth also bother me.

Cameron, I thought, spoke well in the parliament today - certainly to start with. Its so refreshing to hear the House listen quietly and AGREE with something.

But then when there was cross-party condemnation about the proposed police cuts, Cameron reverted to type and entrenched himself into his usual cut/slash/sell mode.

I imagine 99 out of 100 would disagree with his theory about police numbers; and history has shown that in times of recession and a bleak economy, public disorder rises along with crime generally.

If the "big society" is supposed to get us out of these violent moments, explain that to the parents of the three men mown down as they attempted a bit of civic duty.

You'll notice Cameron couldn't wave the "everyone volunteer to police our streets" flag, as the outcome of people doing this has been catastrophic, and it should never have come to that.

Now that the shock of the moment has passed, I think its time to take a good look at our vision for Britain's future. Whilst some of these young people may be simply too unemployable - too thick, too lazy, poorly brought up - or whatever other failings they may have, there are millions of young people who don't fall into that category, and are left bereft of prospects.

The market isn't going to create solutions to our problems - there's no evidence that it ever has. Cheap(er) labour is available overseas for manufacturing, and the service industry is choc a bloc with migrant workers who will work for minimum wage (and less). The gulf between the highest paid and the lowest is increasing year or year.

Some solutions have to come from Government. Its not a case of "nanny state treating [us] like children" - they are OUR government - the money we pay in tax is ours - the children are ours - the future is ours.

Its about time we told government what we want for the future and insist they deliver it.

[Alexia]

I'm also surprised at how little we've heard from Ed Milliband. He's a waste of space at the best of times, but I thought he'd be all over this like he was on the phone hacking.

What could he possibly say that wouldn't be seized upon by the right wing press and Guido Fawkes as being opportunistic jingoism?

The phone hacking was different because of Cameron's close associations with the Murdochs and Brookses of this world. Say what you like about Cameron, hugging hoodies and all, but I don't think he'd associate with the rioting mob, however white and middle-class they appear to be.

[all new Phil]

Now that the shock of the moment has passed, I think its time to take a good look at our vision for Britain's future. Whilst some of these young people may be simply too unemployable - too thick, too lazy, poorly brought up - or whatever other failings they may have, there are millions of young people who don't fall into that category, and are left bereft of prospects.

The market isn't going to create solutions to our problems - there's no evidence that it ever has. Cheap(er) labour is available overseas for manufacturing, and the service industry is choc a bloc with migrant workers who will work for minimum wage (and less). The gulf between the highest paid and the lowest is increasing year or year.

Some solutions have to come from Government. Its not a case of "nanny state treating [us] like children" - they are OUR government - the money we pay in tax is ours - the children are ours - the future is ours.

Its about time we told government what we want for the future and insist they deliver it.

What do you want for the future, though, and how could the government deliver it? It's all very well saying that the government has to do something about it, but there is no hard and fast rule that X works and Y doesn't, and I don't think any government ever enters office with an intention contrary to this.

So what can the government do? Reduce the minimum wage so we can compete with the cheaper labour overseas? Deport anybody who has migrated here? I think the government has broadly the right ideas with regards to making the UK a good place for companies to do business, but should they maybe lower corporation tax or the top rate of income tax? That would encourage more companies to do business in the UK surely?

[Gavin Scott]

Now that the shock of the moment has passed, I think its time to take a good look at our vision for Britain's future. Whilst some of these young people may be simply too unemployable - too thick, too lazy, poorly brought up - or whatever other failings they may have, there are millions of young people who don't fall into that category, and are left bereft of prospects.

The market isn't going to create solutions to our problems - there's no evidence that it ever has. Cheap(er) labour is available overseas for manufacturing, and the service industry is choc a bloc with migrant workers who will work for minimum wage (and less). The gulf between the highest paid and the lowest is increasing year or year.

Some solutions have to come from Government. Its not a case of "nanny state treating [us] like children" - they are OUR government - the money we pay in tax is ours - the children are ours - the future is ours.

Its about time we told government what we want for the future and insist they deliver it.

What do you want for the future, though, and how could the government deliver it? It's all very well saying that the government has to do something about it, but there is no hard and fast rule that X works and Y doesn't, and I don't think any government ever enters office with an intention contrary to this.

So what can the government do? Reduce the minimum wage so we can compete with the cheaper labour overseas? Deport anybody who has migrated here? I think the government has broadly the right ideas with regards to making the UK a good place for companies to do business, but should they maybe lower corporation tax or the top rate of income tax? That would encourage more companies to do business in the UK surely?

All those suggestions are the polar opposite of what my instinct says.

According to the Eye, there's approximately £10,000,000,000 owed to the exchequer by large corporations avoiding their tax bill. That would go a long way to helping fund all of those things which are having budgets cut.

My ideology tells me that if companies want to cheat their obligations on tax, let them cheat another country.

Cutting the top rate of tax when the burden has been placed on the lowest paid (in fact, the middle-to-lowest) is pretty abhorrent to me.

Wealthy folk (and I know a few in my current employment) have the means to mitigate against large tax bills. They retain capable professionals year round to do just that.

Cutting the wages council was the start of the gulf between high earners and those on the bottom. How long until minimum wage is deemed "unaffordable"?

I don't claim to have all the answers, or I'd run for office. Well, the skeletons in my closet may hold me back from that, to be honest.

But to reiterate my earlier point - making it easy for companies to return large profits for shareholders isn't necessarily in the country's interests - especially when those like Vodafone move cash around the world to avoid their liabilities. The benefit of trading in the UK should see a benefit to the people of the UK.

A fair day's wage for a fair day's work is the starting point; and its impossible to imagine that smart people can't find a way to make that happen. As we witness, when consumers don't have money to spend, that's when economies collapse.

You can't continue to pay large swathes of the public shitpence, whilst chief execs earn millions and expect the economy to grow.

Surely?

[all new Phil]

What we need is Robert Webb and a round-table of extremely clever people, declaring "come on, boffins, let's sort this out".

The company I work for also operates around Europe, and I was recently elected to the forum in which representatives from each country meet and discuss things that affect the employees and the company as a whole. It struck me at our recent meeting just how different our European neighbours are. The Germans in particular were very much the ones who were giving the senior management a hard time, asking the probing questions, and wanting the best deal for their employees. I think this stems from just how unionised the country is, and how just how much influence the unions have - they are certainly given a lot more respect than the ones in this country (which, to be honest, are largely useless and have drifted far away from the role they are supposed to fulfill) and have more of a relationship with the government. Now I don't claim to have much of a knowledge about the German economy or government, but I got the impression that there is a lot more focus on workers' rights from the government. Whilst I've never had any time for the unions in this country, I think the way that they work over there seems to be a lot more beneficial not just for the workers, but for the country as a whole (their economy is in far better shape than ours and most of Europe). Maybe there are things we can learn from them?

I think the balance between greed and responsibility has shifted far too much towards greed in this country at the moment, with companies largely wanting to get away with paying as little as possible for maximum profit. I get grief for spending too much on payroll, but at the end of the day, saving on payroll means cutting my team's hours and ultimately how much money they take home, so I choose to ignore it. It means I lose a part of my bonus at the end of the year, but so be it.

Anyway - riots, we're drifting off topic.

[Gavin Scott]

So, with the sentencing coming down from those events -

Is a four year custodial sentence too harsh for incitement to rioting, is it too little, or just right?

Thoughts please.

[marksi]

Well. A rioter in Belfast who dropped a concrete block onto a policewoman's head from the roof of a shop was sentenced to 4 years in prison for "attempting to commit grevious bodily harm".

Now I think there's an argument here that the DPP had no balls in not pressing for an attempted murder charge as he'd pleaded guilty to the GBH charge, but even so, if we compare this sentence with the Facebook riot incitement charges how do we feel?

To me, 4 years for the Facebookers is too harsh (and will undoubtedly be reduced on appeal), but the 4 years for dropping a concrete block on a policewoman's head during a riot is about one-third of what he deserved.