Tell me about netbooks

[bilky asko]

The problem with checking them at the shop is that usually in PC World and John Lewis, they're either running a Flash app which you can't exit or the user has a password.

The other thing to be wary of in shops is that the ones on display don't have batteries, therefore you can't really gauge size, shape and weight. The battery makes a lot of difference especially if you get a 6-cell one

Worth noting that if you're about to spend a few hundreds pounds in a shop - its perfectly acceptable to ask them to let you try a proper one out for weight and speed. If they say they can't open a box for you, tell them you can't spend your money there and walk away.

I severely doubt they could let you try a new one, as it would have to be set up. I think it would be easier for them to unlock the PC on display from the demo screen, and then let you try it. If you want to gauge the weight, they should be able to get the display PC's battery, and put it in for you.

[Gavin Scott]

I severely doubt they could let you try a new one, as it would have to be set up. I think it would be easier for them to unlock the PC on display from the demo screen, and then let you try it. If you want to gauge the weight, they should be able to get the display PC's battery, and put it in for you.

What do you mean "doubt they could"?

They can do whatever they want to do. Stock is routinely opened and placed on display in windows (the non-flash screen ones). Its only since the advent of Apple and their "opening the box experience" bullshit that people have become accustomed to thinking that a sealed unit has to be sealed - or the sky may fall on us.

That's really why I pointed out that you are quite within your rights to ask a retailer to allow you to handle what you're about to pay, say, half a grand for.

Don't be a sheep. You're the customer. They can and will allow you to handle a new one - and if they say no then tell them they just lost a sale, and wander off and spend your money where they're more obliging.

I should point out I have had more years in sales than some of you have lived.

Probably shouldn't remind myself of that.

[Nick Harvey]

You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive, after all.

[cdd]

I've yet to encounter resistance to my policy (with small off the shelf items) of simply opening the box myself.

[bilky asko]

I severely doubt they could let you try a new one, as it would have to be set up. I think it would be easier for them to unlock the PC on display from the demo screen, and then let you try it. If you want to gauge the weight, they should be able to get the display PC's battery, and put it in for you.

What do you mean "doubt they could"?

They can do whatever they want to do. Stock is routinely opened and placed on display in windows (the non-flash screen ones). Its only since the advent of Apple and their "opening the box experience" bullshit that people have become accustomed to thinking that a sealed unit has to be sealed - or the sky may fall on us.

That's really why I pointed out that you are quite within your rights to ask a retailer to allow you to handle what you're about to pay, say, half a grand for.

Don't be a sheep. You're the customer. They can and will allow you to handle a new one - and if they say no then tell them they just lost a sale, and wander off and spend your money where they're more obliging.

I should point out I have had more years in sales than some of you have lived.

Probably shouldn't remind myself of that.

So I'd assume that the one they've opened has to be sold as new, does it?

Of course I'm within my rights to ask them to open it. I'm within my rights to ask them if I can play football with a couple of their products. That doesn't mean they have the legal duty to oblige. I can't see why any major store would set up a computer simply for a customer to try a new one, when the display model is the same, without the battery.

Stock is routinely opened and placed on display in windows

So that's a display model.

[Gavin Scott]

Of course I'm within my rights to ask them to open it. I'm within my rights to ask them if I can play football with a couple of their products. That doesn't mean they have the legal duty to oblige. I can't see why any major store would set up a computer simply for a customer to try a new one, when the display model is the same, without the battery.

You're making this more complicated than it is.

"Legal obligations" don't come in to it, its simply a matter of allowing the customer to examine the merchandise - which is what has happened for hundreds of years.

I don't mean this in a rude way, but if you're too embarrassed (or you think its inappropriate) to ask them to open a box then don't. No skin off anyone else's nose.

I'm not, I have and I will again. It doesn't cause anyone any grief, and you get to ensure that the kit is immaculate and (if you want to see it operating) in working order - even if that only extends to booting up an operating system and hitting "cancel" before it goes into a setup wizard.

Merchandise can be opened and switched on, and then still be "new". If it has never left the shop premises and it hasn't been played with by every passing teenager with sticky fingers, then its absolutely fine.

And, of course, if you examine the product and you're happy with it, then you can purchase the one you've opened.

It happens in the retail industry, where I worked for many years - and also in the trade industry with highly expensive pieces of kit like moving lights, electronic show controls, LED colour changers etc etc.

If you've been into a Curry's or John Lewis, you'll have seen the PCs and laptops which are on display - some of which are in a pretty bad state - I've seen Sony Vaios with bent keyboard keys and all kinds of schmutz on the casing. More often than not they're tethered to the shelf and have no battery (like the Inspector said), so you've really got no idea what its going to feel like to carry and use it.

It may be a modern sensibility to not "inconvenience" the retailer; but I'm slightly older than some and remember when shops used to have long counters where staff would ask "can I help you?", before bringing you the item you wanted to look at. Now its about browsing all by yourself and if you don't see it, you assume they don't have it. [/nostalgia]. That was only 15-20 years ago, mind.

Stock is routinely opened and placed on display in windows

So that's a display model.

Display models are the ones left running either on the shelf or in the window. A retailer can sell as new an item that's been unboxed and put in the window if its not been running for days/weeks/months.

[bilky asko]

Of course I'm within my rights to ask them to open it. I'm within my rights to ask them if I can play football with a couple of their products. That doesn't mean they have the legal duty to oblige. I can't see why any major store would set up a computer simply for a customer to try a new one, when the display model is the same, without the battery.

You're making this more complicated than it is.

"Legal obligations" don't come in to it, its simply a matter of allowing the customer to examine the merchandise - which is what has happened for hundreds of years.

I don't mean this in a rude way, but if you're too embarrassed (or you think its inappropriate) to ask them to open a box then don't. No skin off anyone else's nose.

I'm not, I have and I will again. It doesn't cause anyone any grief, and you get to ensure that the kit is immaculate and (if you want to see it operating) in working order - even if that only extends to booting up an operating system and hitting "cancel" before it goes into a setup wizard.

Merchandise can be opened and switched on, and then still be "new". If it has never left the shop premises and it hasn't been played with by every passing teenager with sticky fingers, then its absolutely fine.

And, of course, if you examine the product and you're happy with it, then you can purchase the one you've opened.

It happens in the retail industry, where I worked for many years - and also in the trade industry with highly expensive pieces of kit like moving lights, electronic show controls, LED colour changers etc etc.

If you've been into a Curry's or John Lewis, you'll have seen the PCs and laptops which are on display - some of which are in a pretty bad state - I've seen Sony Vaios with bent keyboard keys and all kinds of schmutz on the casing. More often than not they're tethered to the shelf and have no battery (like the Inspector said), so you've really got no idea what its going to feel like to carry and use it.

It may be a modern sensibility to not "inconvenience" the retailer; but I'm slightly older than some and remember when shops used to have long counters where staff would ask "can I help you?", before bringing you the item you wanted to look at. Now its about browsing all by yourself and if you don't see it, you assume they don't have it. [/nostalgia]. That was only 15-20 years ago, mind.

Stock is routinely opened and placed on display in windows

So that's a display model.

Display models are the ones left running either on the shelf or in the window. A retailer can sell as new an item that's been unboxed and put in the window if its not been running for days/weeks/months.

I don't think it is inappropriate for me to ask them to open the box. I wouldn't be embarrased. However, I think it is silly: if the product is not working, it can be returned; the product's suitability can be ascertained via the display model. If it is a product that can't be viewed via the display model, then fine, open the box. I would very happily ask a retailer to do that (for example, at B&Q), to inspect a product. However, I do feel it stupid to power-up a non-display model, when a display model can do all that a non-display can.

And, on the topic of whether a window model counts as a display model, it must depend on the retailer. If I went into Argos, and the only item they have left of a particular model is on display, they would deem it a display model.

I don't wish to be rude, but which retailer did/do you work for?

[Gavin Scott]

I don't think it is inappropriate for me to ask them to open the box. I wouldn't be embarrased. However, I think it is silly: if the product is not working, it can be returned; the product's suitability can be ascertained via the display model. If it is a product that can't be viewed via the display model, then fine, open the box. I would very happily ask a retailer to do that (for example, at B&Q), to inspect a product. However, I do feel it stupid to power-up a non-display model, when a display model can do all that a non-display can.

It would be silly to ask for every piece of equipment to be opened, sure. But we were talking about laptops/netbooks; and weight and handling are key considerations. You might be able to ascertain everything you need to know from the one on the shelf - or you might not. All I said was you could ask - and if you weren't satisfied with the response then you could try a more obliging vendor.

I know you can return goods if they're not up to par - but yeesh - who has time for all that palaver when you can ask in the shop?

Not trying to make a big deal out of it - its just that some people like to be really thorough when they make a substantial purchase, and I'm one of those people.

That's all, really.

And, on the topic of whether a window model counts as a display model, it must depend on the retailer. If I went into Argos, and the only item they have left of a particular model is on display, they would deem it a display model.

I don't wish to be rude, but which retailer did/do you work for?

I suppose its discretionary if a retailer considers something "ex-display" and discounts the price; but there's no compulsion for a vendor to discount if an item is merely out of its box. Different argument if its a flat-screen TV left running.

An MP3 player laying on top of its box in a shop window can be sold as new - but there's nothing to stop a customer asking for a few quid off - and I might well ask.

I've worked for privately owned independent companies, one a small enterprise retailer, the other a multi-million concern selling equipment and services to the entertainment industry. In the case of the latter I would typically open the item to show and demonstrate - sometimes selling that particular one, other times popping it back in the warehouse and selling sealed packages.

But when it was the last one available I could (and did) sell it as new.

[bilky asko]

I don't think it is inappropriate for me to ask them to open the box. I wouldn't be embarrased. However, I think it is silly: if the product is not working, it can be returned; the product's suitability can be ascertained via the display model. If it is a product that can't be viewed via the display model, then fine, open the box. I would very happily ask a retailer to do that (for example, at B&Q), to inspect a product. However, I do feel it stupid to power-up a non-display model, when a display model can do all that a non-display can.

It would be silly to ask for every piece of equipment to be opened, sure. But we were talking about laptops/netbooks; and weight and handling are key considerations. You might be able to ascertain everything you need to know from the one on the shelf - or you might not. All I said was you could ask - and if you weren't satisfied with the response then you could try a more obliging vendor.

I know you can return goods if they're not up to par - but yeesh - who has time for all that palaver when you can ask in the shop?

Not trying to make a big deal out of it - its just that some people like to be really thorough when they make a substantial purchase, and I'm one of those people.

That's all, really.

And, on the topic of whether a window model counts as a display model, it must depend on the retailer. If I went into Argos, and the only item they have left of a particular model is on display, they would deem it a display model.

I don't wish to be rude, but which retailer did/do you work for?

I suppose its discretionary if a retailer considers something "ex-display" and discounts the price; but there's no compulsion for a vendor to discount if an item is merely out of its box. Different argument if its a flat-screen TV left running.

An MP3 player laying on top of its box in a shop window can be sold as new - but there's nothing to stop a customer asking for a few quid off - and I might well ask.

I've worked for privately owned independent companies, one a small enterprise retailer, the other a multi-million concern selling equipment and services to the entertainment industry. In the case of the latter I would typically open the item to show and demonstrate - sometimes selling that particular one, other times popping it back in the warehouse and selling sealed packages.

But when it was the last one available I could (and did) sell it as new.

One item I remember buying as display at Argos was the current display model - I received no discount for it, and I ended up returning it after it broke within weeks, and I bought a better brand from somewhere else.

I suppose the discretion not only depends upon the retailer, but the region.