Conservatives

[Chie]

Firstly, I'm not talking down to you, the only way I can see you getting upset is if you are unemployed and you just want to appear posh, and I've hit the nail on the head. Being old enough to vote is neither here nor there, because in 2 years, I can vote. I understand politics and know about Dave's agenda. He doesn't really care about poorer people, he just cares about his roots.

Only I'm not unemployed, as such. I'm a self-employed sole trader and I make enough to scrape by, although a part-time job to top-up my income would of course be very nice.

I have no aspiration of being 'posh'. I'm grateful for what I've got and I don't preoccupy myself with how much money or consumer goods other people have compared to me, as that would be a very unhealthy existence.

Okay? :)

Oh, and you do have an irritating habit of lecturing people as if they don't know what's good for them and they need saving from themselves, Beep. It's very precocious, as you'll discover yourself when you're 23.

[Gavin Scott]

As an aside - didn't you say you wouldn't pay for a filling as you thought you were being ripped off? That sums up cutting off one's nose to spite one's face, I would have said.

No, that's an example of being sensible and making sure people don't walk all over you because they think they can. Which is a problem I face quite often, as you can probably imagine.

Suit yourself gummy.

Who employs people, Gavin? Who creates jobs? Who runs the economy?

Another saying springs to mind here. It's 'don't bite the hand that feeds you'.

We want rich business people to stay in this country not emigrate to somewhere where they and their business won't be taxed to the eyeballs.

In common with most people, I'm employed by a higher rate tax payer (£50,000 - 100,000 pa), not one of the super rich. Who employs you?

You have to know a little something about the area you're trying to preach about, Chie.

"Don't bit the hand that feeds?" - perhaps you'd like us all to doff our caps to the gentry.

I am a wealth creator. I wasn't born with it.

There's a difference.

[Chie]

In common with most people, I'm employed by a higher rate tax payer (£50,000 - 100,000 pa), not one of the super rich. Who employs you?

You have to know a little something about the area you're trying to preach about, Chie.

"Don't bit the hand that feeds?" - perhaps you'd like us all to doff our caps to the gentry.

Certainly not, but the poor can use the 'gentry' (by which I mean very rich business people) to their advantage. Not by taxing the shit out of them and their business, but by encouraging them to invest and create more jobs.

I am a wealth creator. I wasn't born with it.

There's a difference.

If you were to have children, they would be born with it. That's where the old meritocracy argument falls right down and why a meritocratic society isn't worth pursuing.

[Gavin Scott]

Certainly not, but the poor can use the 'gentry' (by which I mean very rich business people) to their advantage. Not by taxing the shit out of them and their business, but by encouraging them to invest and create more jobs.

Err.. we've had a Labour government since the last century, Chie, and setting aside the global economic meltdown, we had a decade of unsurpassed growth in the UK economy.

All the hollow threats from the likes of Lloyd Webber that they would "quit the UK" if Labour came to power were just that - hollow.

Except of course for some of the wealthiest tory peers - who aren't registered in the UK to pay tax.

How do you feel about that?

[James H]

All the hollow threats from the likes of Lloyd Webber that they would "quit the UK" if Labour came to power were just that - hollow.

You can't deny the existence of the 'brain drain' though, Gavin? It seems to be middle-sized business owners who are currently hardest hit - in personal experience anyway - and makes 5 more years of Labour a bitter pill to swallow.

[Gavin Scott]

All the hollow threats from the likes of Lloyd Webber that they would "quit the UK" if Labour came to power were just that - hollow.

You can't deny the existence of the 'brain drain' though, Gavin? It seems to be middle-sized business owners who are currently hardest hit - in personal experience anyway - and makes 5 more years of Labour a bitter pill to swallow.

I'm sorry I don't know to what you are referring.

Could you elucidate?

[Gavin Scott]

Gosh this seems to happen a lot.

Things get said, and then there's neither a jot nor a scintilla of anything to back it up.

(Unless you've been distracted with something, in which case I apologise).

Nonetheless - to fill the vacuum of facts here, let me just say that there were an estimated 4.81 million private sector enterprises in the UK at the start of 2008, an increase of 104,000 (2.2 per cent) since the start of 2007.

These levels, in fact, are the highest since the recording of such began in 1994. These enterprises employed an estimated 23.1 million people, and had an estimated combined annual turnover of £3,000 billion.

Small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) together accounted for 99.9 per cent of all enterprises, 59.4 per cent of private sector employment and 50.1 per cent of private sector turnover. Employment in SMEs is estimated at 13.7 million, 287,000 (2.1 per cent) higher than in 2007.

Turnover in SMEs is estimated at £1,500 billion, £61 billion (4.2 per cent) higher than 2007.

So, "brain drain"? "Medium sized businesses the hardest hit"?

Sounds like propaganda to me.

[James H]

I was distracted with something - thank you for making that concession.

All I can speak from is personal experience. One of my parents owns a small/medium sized business in the North East, and that company has steadily been taxed to and beyond the hilt over the past few years. It has become harder and harder to turnover and come into profit, and with this comes the labyrinthine system of tax payment and calculation. In the end - yes, my family has been very hard hit by the recession, but equally as hit by Gordon Brown steadily killing it.

Again, this is all personal experience, and you can't really argue with that, as voting and politics can be deeply personal things.

[Gavin Scott]

The business I was with before this one struggled badly, and in fact failed. That was a really unpleasant time - and yes, the burden of taxation didn't help his business troubles; but in all fairness (even though I was a "victim" - if you will, of that failure) it could just as easily have been a success.

To this day I'm not sure if he even paid my PAYE to the Government. I guess I'll find out at some stage if he did.

Politics is always very personal, and I have no doubt that the views you hold come from some very legitimate experience.

But that's perhaps no different to the argument that Thatcher's revolution in Britain was ultimately a good thing for the economy at the time - its just that you had to step over the corpses of entire communities (in the north west and north east particularly, as I recall - not to mention Scotland), before you could see the bigger picture.

[James H]

This is why the Tories are still reviled in the parts where I'm from - wards like Jarrow are still particularly bitter places.

[Gavin Scott]

This is why the Tories are still reviled in the parts where I'm from - wards like Jarrow are still particularly bitter places.

And as much as I hate to pigeon hold people, that's why I'm curious as to your right wing leanings, given both your profession and the area you grew up in.