What's going on with all this gender stuff?

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WillPS
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Dr Lobster* wrote: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 11.30
WillPS wrote: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 09.12 Not sure I have a different answer for those last 3 other than 'who cares', too. The last one is a bit loaded because of the rape stuff, but why is gender part of that argument - how much rape goes on in prison every single day? How about we sort the issue out rather than cherry picking isolated incidents and pointing to it as if it's a problem of tolerating people being what they want to be?
I don't think gender is part of the argument with prisons, it's biological sex. Most sexual assaults are committed by men against women, and according to this report, there were 1000 rapes in prisons over the last decade, so, even in single sex spaces, it seems to be a massive problem, with most of the assaults perpetrated by men (I can't find exact figures for the last couple of years right now, but seems to be more than 9 out of 10 cases), so superficially at least, putting women in mens prisons, or man in a women's just seems like a bad idea - and prisons aren't nice places, they have people in them that have committed very horrible and brutal crimes with no remorse so I'm not sure this is an easy problem to solve.
Rapists shouldn't be in a position where they can rape others. It doesn't matter which set of genitals they have nor which they had at birth.
Dr Lobster* wrote: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 11.30 The nub of my response to your first point wasn't to try and get you work out and put a stake in the ground as to what a women is - we all know this - we all came out of one after all - but at what point in gender transition that I can generally, by most people, be accepted as a women. It is because I say so? Is it just by how I look? is it about genitals? or is it further?
There's nothing to work out, except what we need to do as a society to ensure it's not a problem.

None of this is complicated, unless you want it to be.
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cwathen
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Dr Lobster* wrote: Fri 06 Oct, 2023 18.26 When did this happen? when did the terms men and women become an identity and something you can just become? and how can it be reconciled?
Having followed this thread, I must confess to being intrigued as to how this particular issue has got to you so much. If it's personal and to do with people in your life maybe talk to them, but if not I don't see any reason to be this riled about it.

Ultimately, the sexuality or gender of the vast majority of people a person comes across in their life will be totally irrelevant to them; you won't have a level of intimacy with them which makes that relevant. When it comes to the small number that are then that's a matter for you and the person. If a person ends up not being cisgender, that isn't really any more relevant to *almost freaking everybody* than it is if a person ends up not being heterosexual.

I don't think 'as a society' we really need to reconcile much of anything and this is really just driven by a fear that somehow 'they' are trying to infringe upon 'normal' people. It's just not true. If you're comfortable with the sexuality and/or the gender that you have, no one is coming for it. In fact the last census confirms that 90% of the population identifies as heterosexual and a higher number than that as cisgender. If anyone has a prejudice against deviation from either of those things (not saying you have said that on sexual orientation) then they don't need to; they're at no risk of becoming a minority.

Politicians dog whistling over this subject is a bit like 'Adam & Eve not Adam & Steve' slurs in the 80's. If you're comfortable with who you are you don't need to obsess over people you don't know becoming comfortable with who they are, it simply isn't relevant to you. If you don't believe a person's gender can or should be changed, then don't change yours. It's surely that simple?

The only thing I would ever say on the subject of non-cis is there does need to be some thought as to improper intent; you can't have an alpha male getting into an argument with a woman in a nightclub then follow her into the toilet and have him be able to say 'I identify as a woman' and the staff not stop him from entering as a result. But honestly, that's not happening and I doubt very much that it will. If there was even one single case of it the Daily Mail and the Express would have run front pages on it for weeks. That hasn't happened. And if it ever did it's an edge case on an edge case. But in terms of answering the question 'what's going on with all this gender stuff'? For me the line is drawn there. And I believe it already is.
Charlie Wells
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Dr Lobster* wrote: Sat 07 Oct, 2023 19.34 As far as I can tell, a trans identity is understood to be any of the strands below, each building on the one above - for simplicity, since we're both guys, let's assume we are referring to me going through a male to female transition:

1. I tell you that I feel like I am a women, but make no changes to my appearance, or presentation.
2. I start to look more feminine by changing my clothes to a typical female style, use makeup, have a typically female haircut, and behaviours etc
3. I start taking cross sex hormones and develop secondary female sex characteristics - my breasts develop, my skin is smoother, my body shape changes etc , most people looking at me would assume that I am male.
4. I have facial feminisation surgery, laser treatment to remove facial hair, surgery to change my voice, and other cosmetic procedures to make me look completely feminine - I would look outwardly female and most people looking at me would not know I am a biological male
5. I have full sex reassignment surgery,

<<SNIP>>

Is it because now, the problem is essentially different? Certainly in my lifetime, somebody who we used to refer to as a transvestite or crossdresser would be at 2 or 3 on the above scale, whilst a transexual would be at point 5.

We now have a problem where people at point one or two assert they are women when historically, being a transexual would have meant you want through some physiological change, now it's just a feeling. I think it's the problem of self ID, the notion that one can self ID into being a biological female which just makes no sense.

We know somebody at point 5 on my scale is ultimately still a biological male - but i feel that women in particular would be more accepting of biological males who identify as women.
I think it's reasonable to say that society's attitudes have changed quite a bit over the years, even since the millennium. Certainly in the 90s at 1 or 2 on your list for a female (of biological sex) would more likely simply be considered a 'Tomboy'.

It's possibly one of those areas where things have been at one end of the scale of a long time and in trying to correct that things maybe swing a bit too far in the opposite direction. Then eventually a considered and balanced middle ground is found, which the majority of people generally agree on. (Then the tabloids move on and find the next thing to be outraged by.)

Personally I think my own opinion on the matter of genders is undecided as I feel I'm still learning and my opinions evolving accordingly.

Doing a quick bit of research into the 2021 UK census results I found https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/20 ... opulation/ for England and Wales, which included the following stats.
What were the results on sexual orientation?
92.5% of respondents aged 16 or over answered the question on sexual orientation, while the remaining 7.5% chose not to.

89.4% of respondents identified as straight or heterosexual. Around 1.5 million people (3.2%) identified as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or another sexual orientation (LGB+).

1.5% of respondents identified as gay or lesbian (around 748,000) while 1.3% (628,000) identified as bisexual.

A further 0.3% (165,000) people identified with a different sexual orientation. The most common ‘other’ orientations given in the write-in box were: pansexual (112,000 people), asexual (28,000 people), and queer (15,000 people).

What were the results on gender identity?
Around 94.0% of respondents aged 16 or over answered the question on gender identity.

93.5% of respondents said their gender identity and their sex registered at birth were the same. Around 262,000 people (0.5%) said their gender identity and sex registered at birth were different.

Not all of those 262,000 people identified explicitly as transgender. Around 48,000 people (0.1%) gave their identity as ‘trans man’ and another 48,000 (0.1%) gave their identity as ‘trans woman’.

118,000 (0.2%) did not provide a write-in response. A further 30,000 identified as non-binary and 18,000 wrote in a different gender identity.
"If ass holes could fly then this place would be an airport."
Dr Lobster*
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WillPS wrote: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 19.49 There's nothing to work out, except what we need to do as a society to ensure it's not a problem.

None of this is complicated, unless you want it to be.
There is most definitely something which needs to be worked out. According to this report, trans hate crimes have increased significantly in the last year. My opinion for this is nothing to do with trans people, per-se, but the notion of self-id in it's various manifestations - it's where most of the noise and vitriol seems to spill over from - the notion that a biological male, with a penis can say that they are female and a lesbian if they say so, and we just have to accept it and not question it - you can be fully supportive of trans people and trans identities and not buy into that idea.

and if none of this is complicated, why can't you answer the question, at what point can I identify as a lesbian in my own male to female transition?
cwathen wrote: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 21.43 Having followed this thread, I must confess to being intrigued as to how this particular issue has got to you so much. If it's personal and to do with people in your life maybe talk to them, but if not I don't see any reason to be this riled about it.
I'm certainly not riled about it, in fact I consider it one of the most interesting social changes and debates in my lifetime - I've swung from complete indifference to being quite intrigued- and like I say, I don't follow it super closely, but it's certainly something that's interesting.
cwathen wrote: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 21.43 Ultimately, the sexuality or gender of the vast majority of people a person comes across in their life will be totally irrelevant to them...
I agree. A persons gender is actually an entirely internalised aspect - yes, a person might instantiate it visibly in some ways but the most important parts of it are entirely existing in ones own mind and of no interest to the wider world.
cwathen wrote: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 21.43 I don't think 'as a society' we really need to reconcile much of anything and this is really just driven by a fear that somehow 'they' are trying to infringe upon 'normal' people. It's just not true. If you're comfortable with the sexuality and/or the gender that you have, no one is coming for it.
I think you mischaracterise the problem. I'm not suggesting some people aren't thinking like that and that some people are not genuinely transphobic or hate trans people, to my mind, the problem is how we can balance identity with the physical and how we bring some coherence. How do we begin to reconcile the example I have given: a biological male, with male genitals, identifying as a woman and calling themselves as a lesbian. Do biological women just have to accept it? Are they transphobic if they do not? If women can have a penis, what's the difference between a man and a women now?
cwathen wrote: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 21.43 If you don't believe a person's gender can or should be changed, then don't change yours. It's surely that simple?
Your gender can be changed, I've never said that it couldn't be, I said your biological sex can't be changed because biological sex is a category of reproductive role, so, there is nothing I can do which would enable me to naturally conceive and give birth to a child as a biological male.
cwathen wrote: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 21.43 The only thing I would ever say on the subject of non-cis is there does need to be some thought as to improper intent; you can't have an alpha male getting into an argument with a woman in a nightclub then follow her into the toilet and have him be able to say 'I identify as a woman' and the staff not stop him from entering as a result.
There are lots of potential scenarios, the Isla Bryson case being a recent example - but how do we decide what's proper trans and fake trans? What's the objective test? This is the essence of the problem of self-id. You can say you are a women without putting in any effort at all and many people are now sufficiently intellectually boxed in that they don't feel like they can question it and have to go along with it- it was utterly painful seeing Nicola Sturgeon tying herself in knots over Isla Bryson trying not to say the wrong thing - knowing deep down this was a biological male with a penis, but somehow, him saying he was a women gave him some sort of magical power and he was now a women, just like her.
Charlie Wells wrote: Mon 09 Oct, 2023 15.02 I think it's reasonable to say that society's attitudes have changed quite a bit over the years, even since the millennium. Certainly in the 90s at 1 or 2 on your list for a female (of biological sex) would more likely simply be considered a 'Tomboy'.

It's possibly one of those areas where things have been at one end of the scale of a long time and in trying to correct that things maybe swing a bit too far in the opposite direction. Then eventually a considered and balanced middle ground is found, which the majority of people generally agree on. (Then the tabloids move on and find the next thing to be outraged by.)

Personally I think my own opinion on the matter of genders is undecided as I feel I'm still learning and my opinions evolving accordingly.
I agree, both sides in this need to give some ground.

This is a debate which seems to centre around biological women and but I think biological women can come around to the idea that a biological male is a women if they have fully medically transitioned.
all new Phil
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I think there needs to be a distinction between trans women who want to live their lives, and bad men who could use self ID to access female only spaces.

I’m neither female, nor trans, so I have no idea how prevalent the second of those two groups is, but I don’t understand how we can stop it from happening. One thing we know for definite is that men are the biggest danger to women. Women need safe spaces away from men. Can someone who was born male identify their way out of being a risk? I don’t know. All we really have is an assurance they won’t be. I’m not sure I’d be comfortable with that if I was a woman.
bilky asko
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Dr Lobster* wrote: Mon 09 Oct, 2023 20.10There is most definitely something which needs to be worked out. According to this report, trans hate crimes have increased significantly in the last year.
The press (including the BBC) whips up a panic, the government go anti-trans to try and get one over on Labour, and - shock horror - there's an increase in hate crimes.

That then gets people like you to think there's a problem to solve. Trans people are not a problem to solve, and people here should recognise recycled homophobia better than the general public.
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Martin Phillp
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You have people like JK Rowling and Graham Linehan, high profile middle class successful people in their own right who have clung on to the Gender Critical movement, a Labour MP in Rosie Duffield and other high profile people who have lead to the Conservative Party now becoming UKIP lite which now includes transphobia as standard to win votes, which has led to these types of people gaining an audience for their hate on social media and the media taking notice.

As bilky mentions, it's recycled homophobia which is now being used against another minority of people getting on with their lives, but a group of ignorant, bigoted people can't see past their own binary norms to understand that we're not all the same, regardless of how we were born.
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WillPS
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Dr Lobster* wrote: Mon 09 Oct, 2023 20.10
WillPS wrote: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 19.49 There's nothing to work out, except what we need to do as a society to ensure it's not a problem.

None of this is complicated, unless you want it to be.
There is most definitely something which needs to be worked out. According to this report, trans hate crimes have increased significantly in the last year. My opinion for this is nothing to do with trans people, per-se, but the notion of self-id in it's various manifestations - it's where most of the noise and vitriol seems to spill over from - the notion that a biological male, with a penis can say that they are female and a lesbian if they say so, and we just have to accept it and not question it - you can be fully supportive of trans people and trans identities and not buy into that idea.

and if none of this is complicated, why can't you answer the question, at what point can I identify as a lesbian in my own male to female transition?
Because there's no agreed path to determining these things, because such a thing would require government and the populous to be sympathetic, kind and rational. It's not incumbent on me to declare what this path should be, I am telling you that there should be one. A side-effect of that could be that rapist prisoners are better separated from prison populations and public toilets/changing areas are reconfigured.

In lieu of such a path my default position is to support anyone who is genuinely making the determination and to condemn anyone refusing to acknowledge their identity.

It's not complicated.
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Martin Phillp
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On Big Brother, one of the housemates came out as trans and she explained the whole debate in one sentence.

"I have a female mind, but in the wrong body"

That's all.
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Blewatter
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I think calling it 'This gender stuff' is a bit generalised. But, from my point of view:

1. Biological sex is just that. Biological. You are born with a set of genitalia, sometimes biological defects affect it, but you are born with a certain genitalia. We can all agree on that as a fact.

2. Gender identity is what the real issue is. We, in our society, are at a stage where we are more openly discussing it, and people are challenging the notion of there just being 'men and women'. Because people don't understand it, there are those that hate monger on 'the otherness' of people who are not a boy or a girl, because its 'going to confuse the children'. When I was a child, and I learned about Male to Female trans people, I just accepted it. Some people are born as men and don't want to be men.

3. How people percieve themself, and how they want to be percieved by others should be accepted. If someone says 'I see myself as a woman' then I will say they are a woman. If they have no gender, then I will call that person they/them. There's nothing sexual, or perverse about a person wanting to change their gender. How many transgender people go into toilets to attack people? It might have happened some place, but they're not bad because they're trans, they're bad because they're rapists.

4. I always see people say 'they're only 10, they cannot say they're a boy, they're too young'. If a child is questioning their assigned gender from birth, then we should listen to them, and try to understand. Make them feel comfortable, and able to express themselves. Some children go through phases and experiment, for sure. I, myself, considered my gender identity and sexual orientation as a child. I never changed that, but the thoughts occurred to me.
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Addendum: The reason its so confusing for people to relate is because it isn't 'their experience'. I also think another issue that non gender normative people suffer is that some people do use confusing pronouns that are not mainstream, and are hard to grasp for people. I am not saying one size fits all is the best approach, but it would be helpful for people to accept it if we could work on educating people, and finding the right words.

Also also, people who say 'I identify as a dog or a plane' to ridicule these people. Please accept a virtual punch in the nose.
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