The BIG MetroPoll - IN or OUT ?

[Nick Harvey]

Are you actually saying you only want people with right-leaning views to vote?

Now there's a damn fine idea!

[Finn]

Are you actually saying you only want people with right-leaning views to vote?

Now there's a damn fine idea!

*gasp*

[james2001]

So one person wants old people banned rom voting cos they're more likely to vote in a right-wing way, another wans young people banned cos they're more likely to vote in a left-wing way. Democracy in actio, only wanting people who share your opinions to vote.

[barcode]

We don't have democracy. The Parliamentary election system we have is a farce; not a system designed to represent the votes of the people.

This is actually what sealed my vote as IN. Overall, the policies of the EU have been good, progressive things that have bolstered the rights of workers and consumers. I take comfort in the fact that those things are beyond the control of our crummy government.

The fact that those in politics who want that power are (broadly) those with the views I most object to reinforces my view that without the EU the man on the street would be far worse off.

I don't believe for ONE second the EU is Democratic, The eu Parliament is not like any other Parliament, it cant change or reject stuff, that all done in the back room commits. Also Whats the deal with

* European Council.
* Council of the European Union.
* Presidency of the Council of the EU.
* European Commission.

The Swiss are not in the EU but are far more democratic then any of us.

Jim got the right idea, Remember this is the same shite bag at the EU was wasnt going to let Scotland in... And you wonder why everyone is confused. And still alot of In people in scotland are trying to whitewash the Left wing people who hate the EU.

http://stv.tv/news/politics/1354788-jim ... e-over-eu/

Former SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars has said the party's leadership live in a "parallel universe" over their support for the European Union.

In a speech in Orkney, Sillars said that SNP's support for independence and membership of the EU is a "glaring contradiction". He believes that the SNP's leadership must inhabit a "parallel universe" if they believe that EU membership benefits Scotland.

Sillars said: "There is a glaring contradiction at the heart of official SNP policy on Europe.

"If being in a United Kingdom of 60 million people, where we have direct representation, does not give Scotland the sovereignty it needs, in what parallel universe does the SNP leadership see Scotland's interests being advanced in a 28-member state union of 500 million people?

In the 1980s Sillars devised the SNP's independence-in-Europe policy. He now believes that after the organisation's expansion and loss of the national veto it does not protect small nations' are "crushed" in the EU.

He said: "Small countries are now easily crushed, their views swept aside, as was the case when Greece voted 61% against austerity but had it imposed anyway.

"In reality, Ireland, Portugal and Greece have had massive wage deflation and brutal austerity imposed upon them by the larger states like Germany and France.

"If independence from the British union was to our advantage in 2014, then independence from the European Union is certainly to our advantage in 2016.

"The contradiction of the SNP urging a vote for freedom in 2014 and a vote for restriction and limitation in 2016 cannot stand."

The SNP responded to Sillars' comments by saying that an independent Scotland in the EU would have a "seat and a voice" at Europe's top table.

An SNP spokesman said: "Being part of Europe is good for Scotland, in terms of jobs, prosperity and security.

"An independent Scotland would have a seat and a voice at the EU's top table - something we are currently denied.

"Independence and interdependence go hand in hand in the 21st century, as proven by the fact that many of the EU's member states are smaller than Scotland and many have only become independent in recent decades."

The official campaign for Scotland to vote to Remain in the European Union, Scotland Stronger In Europe, said that EU membership is in the country's best interests.

A Stronger In spokesperson said: "We are campaigning for a Remain vote on 23 June because the facts show that saying in Europe is in our best interests. For example, EU law protects crucial rights at work, including entitlements to paid holiday of at least four weeks a year, maximum working hours, anti-discrimination laws, and statutory paid maternity and paternity leave. In this referendum, the alternative to European protection for Scots is giving such powers to the government at Westminster.

"The arguments for remaining the EU stand on their own merits, but in terms of the independence referendum both sides stressed the importance of protecting our place in Europe. Therefore, the Stronger In campaign is a place where people in Scotland can together across other political divides, and potentially have a decisive impact on the UK-wide result."

Sillars started his political career as a Labour MP in 1970 until forming a breakaway pro-devolution Scottish Labour Party in 1976. He then went on to join the SNP in 1980 where he went on become an MP again from 1988 to 1992.

[WillPS]

We don't have democracy. The Parliamentary election system we have is a farce; not a system designed to represent the votes of the people.

This is actually what sealed my vote as IN. Overall, the policies of the EU have been good, progressive things that have bolstered the rights of workers and consumers. I take comfort in the fact that those things are beyond the control of our crummy government.

The fact that those in politics who want that power are (broadly) those with the views I most object to reinforces my view that without the EU the man on the street would be far worse off.

I don't believe for ONE second the EU is Democratic, The eu Parliament is not like any other Parliament, it cant change or reject stuff, that all done in the back room commits. Also Whats the deal with

* European Council.
* Council of the European Union.
* Presidency of the Council of the EU.
* European Commission.

Where did I say the EU was democratic? I don't believe it is.

I also don't believe Westminster is democratic.

Under the above circumstances, it simply becomes a choice of the sort of policy we have with the EU in place over the sort of policy we might be subjected to otherwise. I refer then to my previous comments on the alignment of those who want to leave...

[dosxuk]

Where did I say the EU was democratic? I don't believe it is.

I also don't believe Westminster is democratic.

Under the above circumstances, it simply becomes a choice of the sort of policy we have with the EU in place over the sort of policy we might be subjected to otherwise. I refer then to my previous comments on the alignment of those who want to leave...

This is why I don't understand the claims that we should leave the EU because it's undemocratic. It's no more undemocratic than our Westminster system. Yes, faceless bureaucrats in Brussels get to make decisions which affect our lives in the UK, but so do many unelected paper-pushers in Westminster. As a single person in the UK, you are just as unlikely to be heard by the Government as you are the EU. However, as a large company, it appears you're much more likely to get an audience with the UK Government than you are the EU.

Bearing in mind I don't buy into the "regain our sovereignity" and "the EU is anti-democratic" reasons, and the "there'll be less illegal immigrants" which is and obvious lie, can anyone on the leave side present any sensible arguments for leaving? Because at the moment I simply can't see any... we just seem to be set to lose far more than we gain.

[all new Phil]

So one person wants old people banned rom voting cos they're more likely to vote in a right-wing way, another wans young people banned cos they're more likely to vote in a left-wing way. Democracy in actio, only wanting people who share your opinions to vote.

I'm certainly not left wing!!

Yeah so maybe saying to exclude over 60s from the vote is extreme. I said that to provoke a discussion. My point still stands, however - how do we stop the vote from being swayed by the group whose viewpoint is seemingly at odds with everyone else's? I'm not saying that over 60s are all UKIPers, but the polling is clear in showing that the older voters have a bigger majority saying they want out. This is the opposite of pretty much every other age group.

My worry is that out voters are more motivated to vote (as they want the change) - given its looking like a potential knife edge result right now, I don't think that a narrow victory for out would stand.

[WillPS]

Bearing in mind I don't buy into the "regain our sovereignity" and "the EU is anti-democratic" reasons, and the "there'll be less illegal immigrants" which is and obvious lie, can anyone on the leave side present any sensible arguments for leaving? Because at the moment I simply can't see any... we just seem to be set to lose far more than we gain.

I'm on the same page.

I think it pretty much comes down to whether you believe:

1. Freedom of movement is a bad thing
2. Freedom of movement would end if we were to leave the EU

I don't believe either myself.

It really annoys me this whole talk that European immigration will need a city the size of x every y - that's not a problem if you just build get on with building, is it? Same with the strain on the NHS argument. Give it the investment it'll need and it can grow. Same for infrastructure. We can grow. We can build.

The problem is not the demand, it is the supply which has been starved off by short sighted governments unwilling to spend on infrastructure (for the last 35+ years) and the unwillingness to fix the relationship our economy has with the housing market.

[james2001]

Funny how many brexiters talk about the migrant crisis and Muslims and the like. Not like leaving the EU would really do much about them. Very rarely do I hear them moan about eastern Europeans, which leaving the EU would actually have an effect on.

[Alexia]

Funny how many brexiters talk about the migrant crisis and Muslims and the like. Not like leaving the EU would really do much about them. Very rarely do I hear them moan about eastern Europeans, which leaving the EU would actually have an effect on.

I don't hear them whinging about French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Scandinavian immigrants either. Or Americans or Canadians. Yet there's loads of those over here too.

[james2001]

Anyone would think there's a racism element involved somewhere with these people...