Metropol

Aye, I know. It's the age old debate. But I've always wondered why people are what they are.

I'm a PC, sadly. It's only because I can't really justify Apple's prices. I love the mac interface though, and the aesthetics. And everything about them. I'm disastrously fangirlish about them.

I love Mac hardware, but the fact is - my £750 Dell laptop is technically superior to the £1500+ MacBook Pro. As you say, there is no way you can justify that sort of obscene premium.

I'm going to give OSX86 a go though.

I am a PC, but I would go for a Mac any day, except my budget just won't justify it. I love the aesthetics too, and the interface and that is all wonderful. One day, when I have a bigger budget, I will buy a Mac.

I'm a PC, myself, Apple Mac's are just extortionate for what you get.

Will, try OSX86 but make sure you get the bootloader setup absolutely perfectly right otherwise you bugger it up

Beep wrote:I'm a PC, myself, Apple Mac's are just extortionate for what you get.

I don't feel it's extortionate, I mean it's undeniably about £100 more for a macbook pro compared with a Dell of the same spec. You still have to factor in things like a 5-7 hour battery life, how thin, light and well designed the form factor is (and it is!) and the fact they have longer useful lives and slower depreciation than PC laptops, and these aspects combined with the whole "we control the hardware and the OS" approach make for an experience that's much less hassle than a PC. That's definitely worth money.

As for desktops, well it's harder. I mean yes you can definitely build/buy a desktop of better spec than an iMac for about half the price, but that's not true of all-in-one computers of the same spec, where the difference is less.

Also I would like to state the following reasons that Dell really stink compared with Apple
- Shitware. Unbelievably cynical shitware that you have the option of paying for them to uninstall
- No wifi as standard on desktops. I mean really!
- Paying for shipping
- Apparently random prices day-to-day
- Shit education discounts (apple give 10-15%)
- Ugly UGLY machines, except the ones they make to be really pretty which are more expensive than Apple machines

Sput wrote:

Beep wrote:I'm a PC, myself, Apple Mac's are just extortionate for what you get.

I don't feel it's extortionate, I mean it's undeniably about £100 more for a macbook pro compared with a Dell of the same spec. You still have to factor in things like a 5-7 hour battery life, how thin, light and well designed the form factor is (and it is!) and the fact they have longer useful lives and slower depreciation than PC laptops, and these aspects combined with the whole "we control the hardware and the OS" approach make for an experience that's much less hassle than a PC. That's definitely worth money.

As for desktops, well it's harder. I mean yes you can definitely build/buy a desktop of better spec than an iMac for about half the price, but that's not true of all-in-one computers of the same spec, where the difference is less.

Also I would like to state the following reasons that Dell really stink compared with Apple
- Shitware. Unbelievably cynical shitware that you have the option of paying for them to uninstall
- No wifi as standard on desktops. I mean really!
- Paying for shipping
- Apparently random prices day-to-day
- Shit education discounts (apple give 10-15%)
- Ugly UGLY machines, except the ones they make to be really pretty which are more expensive than Apple machines

Well let me respond to some of those points in turn.

Dell shouldn't be compared to Mac specifically - Dell is merely one of hundreds of PC manufacturers. I've got a Dell laptop and PC (as well as a Maxdata PC, a Sony Vaio PC and a Shuttle small form PC). My software runs happily on all of the machines, and only the Dell and Vaio come bundled with nonsense proprietary software (and hardware in the case of Dell).

If aesthetics are what you're after, Apple are nice - but other PC/laptop manufacturers have some nice styles too, and they are getting better with each generation, as the market dictates that people want thin/fast/pretty. Frankly the shape of the box is the least of my concerns, and as most of my computing happens with a desktop, and I like to keep the base out of sight.

Educational discount - well that doesn't apply to me, or most people over 21.

Depreciation? I've never sold a PC on in my life. I just retire them to different rooms, cannibalise them (another benefit of universal components) and/or sling them out.

But I enjoy hearing Mac owners justify why they feel its ok to be gouged on price.

Its a little bit like Apple making 02 and Orange pay for the iPhone advertising campaigns.

Its a topsy turvy world...

Gouged in price suggests I don't know what I'm doing, gavin, and I take exception to that.

Also, I used dell as an example but I can't think of a single big PC company that doesn't bundle shitware or have horrid plasticky chunky casings for their non-mac-priced machines.

EDIT: I should point out I'm focussing on laptops here. I'm unconvinced by the iMac's value for money (but also by my need for a desktop at all at the moment!)

Sput wrote:Gouged in price suggests I don't know what I'm doing, gavin, and I take exception to that.

I don't mean to offend you, but I can only say it as I see it.

Its been proven that Apple's sales markup (factoring component and assembly costs against their retail price) is on an entirely different strata to any other computer manufacturer. I think it was Which? magazine that had this, but I'll come back with some empirical data - which I know you are a fan of.

So in essence they are charging a premium to own their brand. If that's not gouging, then what word would you use to describe this practice? Its not as if they are manufactured in the US or UK - they're delivered from China like everything else is.

Aluminium is not expensive either.

I'll say it again - Steve Jobs needn't say anything about their pricing structure. All his customers are more than happy to do this for him.

Also, I used dell as an example but I can't think of a single big PC company that doesn't bundle shitware or have horrid plasticky chunky casings for their non-mac-priced machines.

Plastic isn't a horrid product, Sput. Its a versatile, lightweight and robust creation.

But as it happens my Shuttle small form machine doesn't include any plastic. Nor does it contain shitware.

Do continue.

I think you're being overly dismissive! I approached getting one with an open mind, went on ebay and bought the cheapest powerbook 12" I could find back in 2007 and was astonished at the quality of experience I could get from something with a 5-year-old 867MHz processor doing "modern" tasks. I think that's testament to the closed architecture.

Plastic is the enemy, Gav! it's bad at heat dissipation, the finish rubs off and it creaks and cracks more readily than aluminium. Aluminium also looks better, and that is worth a bit more (not the whole lot, but it adds up).

Is your shuttle a laptop? Like I say, I'm not convinced an iMac is worth the money either, but I AM TALKING ABOUT LAPTOPS (okay I had to edit earlier to clarify that but it was easily before your post). So yes, show me the laptop that outspecs a mac on all fronts and offers the same weight, battery life and design quality for less. I think you'll be surprised! That, or I'll be surprised, but I've looked A LOT (some might say too much) for something equivalent on all fronts and it just doesn't exist for less money).

Oh yes, I also wanted to rave about a properly backlit keyboard earlier. It's ultrafab. Basically there are loads of small pleasant things on a macbook pro that add up, and to me they ARE WORTH MONEY. You might disagree and that's entirely a personal choice thing, but in my view they are worth money because they make life easier.

*Sits on dell website trying to build a macbook pro*

I am at £950 and still have a fugly computer with shitware installed and an inferior screen, wifi, touchpad and shit charger connector. Were it not for Dell's arbitrary one-day special offers it would be £1100. Macbook pro is £1328. Still £100 to go before I reach my premium value...

LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO GAV. I WAS GOING TO DO WORK TODAY

Sput wrote:*Sits on dell website trying to build a macbook pro*

I am at £950 and still have a fugly computer with shitware installed and an inferior screen, wifi, touchpad and shit charger connector. Were it not for Dell's arbitrary one-day special offers it would be £1100. Macbook pro is £1328. Still £100 to go before I reach my premium value...

LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO GAV. I WAS GOING TO DO WORK TODAY

Hmm.. what?

Oh I don't care about this any more.

I was away getting my hair cut.

*tum tee tum*