Metropol

Thatcher was not "the greatest Prime Minister in peacetime", Mark. The only person who truly beleives she was is she.

"I've heard far too many people who don't really have a clue about politics or policies, but yet have the right to vote"

"I and others have said all along, all parties are as bad as each other".

You really couldn't have illustrated the fact that you have genuinely no idea what you're talking about any better than that.

Congrats.

There is no privacy any more. Speed cameras have multiplied whilst traffic fatalities have soared. Speed limits have dropped and those who speed dangerously still do so.
-- It's only those who aren't a danger and aren't a problem who are being targeted for the benefits of the few. This is not sensible policy."

A very quick scan of HANSARD will reveal to you...

3rd Nov. 1989
Sir Philip Goodhart, Conservative Member of Parliament for Beckenham:
Speed is another problem. We can now curb speed on main roads through the introduction of speed cameras and on back roads and lesser roads through the wider use of road humps and other traffic-calming measures... I believe that the legislation of speed cameras could be enormously helpful.

And as a result of the North Report in 1988, commission by the Tories...

"in its White Paper, the government accepted the North
Report recommendations that there needed to be further simplification of
the law to reduce the burden on the criminal justice system and greater use of technology in the prevention and detection of offending. It implemented some of these in the new Road Traffic Act 1991 (UK).

So, if you want to blame anyone for speed cameras, blame the Tories, please.

I'll remind you once again of your comments that you've met so many people who don't know a thing about politics or policy. You're just one of them.

nodnirG kraM wrote:The key areas which swing my loyalty are: who benefits from my hard-spunked cash; how much of that cash is taken from me;

And you vote tory..

Now I see.. this is a clever joke, as no-one is that thick.

Example.. Tories privatised cleaning services in school, hospitals etc. Thus the wages are lower as the private companies can get away with murder.

..but we all blame Blair for MRSA.. :roll:

Thatcher started the rot in this country, and whilst the current goverment aren't blameless - they are a damn sight better.

Can you see the tories introducing the mimimum wage.. nah, that money would go on subsidies to farmers :roll:

Gavin Scott wrote:Thatcher was not "the greatest Prime Minister in peacetime", Mark. The only person who truly beleives she was is she.

Yup. Can't argue with that.

nodnirG kraM wrote:

babyben wrote:Can you see the tories introducing the mimimum wage.. nah, that money would go on subsidies to farmers :roll:

The farmers whose incomes are way below any form of minimum wage without subsidies you mean?

Of course they are.... :roll:

A farmer without subsidies... surely that's an oxymoron.

intheknow wrote:

marksi wrote:Here in Northern Ireland it would be quite nice to be able to vote for a party which could form a government, be it Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat.

The Conservatives have stood in this constituency (North Down) in the past, but Labour have until recently not allowed anyone from NI to be a member of the party. It took legal action to redress this. Indeed NI was the only place in the world where you couldn't be a member of the Labour party. The Liberal Democrats don't stand, and haven't explained why. Their NI spokesman, Lembit Opik is also the Welsh spokesman, which somewhat indicates their feelings towards both Nations.

I don't want to vote for any of the NI parties as I don't believe any of them come close to my social or political beliefs in any way, which leaves me rather stuck.

IIRC the Lib Dems are affiliated to the Alliance Party in NI.

Sorry, the argument that a mainland party is "affiliated" to one in NI doesn't hold water with me as the policies are not in line with each others. For example, the Labour party used that argument by saying that they are affiliated to the SDLP. Problem is, the SDLP is a party which supports the idea of a united Ireland. If we therefore follow the process through, and I want Labour to win the general election and form the government, I have to vote for a party which actually doesn't want me to be governed by their affiliated party, or indeed the government of that country at all.

The DUP isn't affiliated to any national party and is openly homophobic:

Mr Paisley, justice spokesman for the biggest unionist party, the Democratic Unionist party, told the BBC: "Most people in Northern Ireland find homosexual relationships offensive and indeed obnoxious and I say that from the position of research I have done."

It's not that long since the DUP controlled Ballymena Council stopped closing children's playgrounds on Sundays. I kid you not.

The UUP is affiliated to the Conservatives, and despite one of David Trimble's closest advisors recently getting married to his boyfriend while on holiday in Canada, Mr Trimble has found himself unable to support the Civil Partnership Bill. Indeed he wouldn't dare support such a thing for fear of upsetting the party's ruling council which is mostly made up of farmers aged 60 plus. Despite the affiliation to the Conservative Party, the Conservatives have stood here in the past. In the 2001 election they got their best result across NI in this constituency of North Down, with 815 votes, or 2.2%, thereby losing their deposit.

Sinn Fein are perhaps the party with the most positive attitude towards gay issues, and minority issues in general. Obviously they're not affiliated to any other party - no, they're affiliated to a terrorist organisation full of murdering criminal bastards and most of the party leadership have been convicted of terrorist crimes at one time or another. They don't print it quite like that on their election literature.

The Alliance Party has never been a dynamic and successful organisation, and they have actually been losing support in the last few years since the only recognisable member of the party (it's leader, John Alderdice) became speaker of the Assembly. They got 3.6% of the vote (and no seats) at the last General Election.

To call it an Assembly is really something of a misnomer as it hasn't actually Assembled in years. Indeed we spent a large amount of money last year electing people for no reason at all, and we are still paying them a salary. Oh, and expenses.

For those of you interested in NI election results, the best site is http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/ which has results going back over 100 years. That's quite a lot of elections - we've had 8 elections in NI since 1997.

For a country of 1.6 million people we have:

582 Councillors in 26 District Councils,
105 MLAs who are not sitting in Stormont because they cannot agree on anything
18 MPs
3 MEPs

Maybe now you can see why I may, for the first time since I was able to vote, exercise my right NOT to vote. I don't think any of these parties are deserving of my vote at all.

:roll:

I'm the first to admit that i know little about politics or policies.
I do know that having grown up under a Tory goverment the lives of myself and my family haved improved considerably under a labour one. One gripe though is the pension scheme. I remind myself that the Tories changed the pension policy and Labour cannot make a silk purse out of Sows ear. The same applies to many other issues but i won't go there.
My parents were young socialists but they never tried to brainwash me into voting Labour they always told me that your vote is yours to make it's a personal thing. Thats the good thing about living in a democratic country, people like me who are ignorant of politics can vote. It's at times like these i appreciate the likes of Adam Boulton.
I may not be making an educated vote on the 5th May but i will be voting for whats important to me.
More importantly though: undecided or confused i will be voting. It's those who don't bother voting because " they are all as bad as each other" that get my goat. They are the first to whinge about what policies the goverment introduce and the decisions made on world affairs.

nodnirG kraM wrote:

cat wrote:

"I've heard far too many people who don't really have a clue about politics or policies, but yet have the right to vote"

"I and others have said all along, all parties are as bad as each other".

You really couldn't have illustrated the fact that you have genuinely no idea what you're talking about any better than that.

Congrats.

LOL yes well done. What part of those quotes illustrates that fact exactly?

I think you've just proved my point yet again!

You claim to know about politics, and then claim that all the parties are 'as bad as each other'. You're about as well informed as a Daily Mail reader.

I also illustrated your serious lack of knowledge in another post, which I notice you've managed to ignore. I wonder why.

And, misshellfire, you're 100% right. It is always those who don't bother to go out and vote and don't bother to get themselves informed on issues who go and complain about them. They're the people who delay progress in this country, not politicians.

nodnirG kraM wrote:

babyben wrote:

nodnirG kraM wrote: The farmers whose incomes are way below any form of minimum wage without subsidies you mean?

Of course they are.... :roll:

A farmer without subsidies... surely that's an oxymoron.

So you're saying farmers aren't entitled to earn the same as everyone else?

It is a perpetual myth - propagated by the arseholes at the NFU - that farmers are all poor and cannot afford to live.

Of course, the Tories would withdraw us from the EU given half the chance, kill off CAP (which, on the contrary, helps a lot of farmers by giving trade breaks) and then we'd see real poverty.

cat wrote:I think you've just proved my point yet again!

You claim to know about politics, and then claim that all the parties are 'as bad as each other'. You're about as well informed as a Daily Mail reader.

I also illustrated your serious lack of knowledge in another post, which I notice you've managed to ignore. I wonder why.

And, misshellfire, you're 100% right. It is always those who don't bother to go out and vote and don't bother to get themselves informed on issues who go and complain about them. They're the people who delay progress in this country, not politicians.

The truth is though that the parties are broadly similar on most policies, albeit with some minor differences and, in a couple of instances, major.

Ever since the polarisation of politics ended when Labour became New Labour, each of the three main parties are centrist.

Whoever the incumbent Government is, the opposition parties pledge to match or slightly increase the funding of the public services.

As soon as a policy or proposed policy finds favour with a significant section of the newspapers, the other parties either copy it or say they will do the same but better/harder/cheaper/etc.

The differences are so slight now that an Old Labour person feels cheated by New Labour's lurch to the right, an old Tory feels cheated by the new Tory's increasing lurches to the left, and the Liberal Democrats are still a centrist party (despite the odd 'left-wing' policy for show).

There is a real democratic deficit in the UK. How can three supposedly different parties agree that the right amount of GDP to take in taxes is arou d 38-41%. Hardly much of a choice.

The truth is that the more people who vote, the more this corrupted system of debate is legitimised.

Is there a solution to this? Probably not.

But you'd have to skipping through the valley of make-believe to really think that things would be that much different under the Tories or under the Lib Dems.

It's a choice between salted crisps, slightly more salted crisps, and ever so slightly more salted crisps.