Pope-ing his clogs

[Marcus]

I think we all realise that the Catholic Church is a evil organisation which has spread nothing but misery in its 2000 year existance.

No, we're not all agreed. Nearly a billion members worldwide, are they all miserable on it's account?

It's track record is not good you know.Burning heritics who said the world was round, conspiring to cover up the Holocaust.

That's rubbish!

What makes you think it's right on this one.
I'm sure Christ will be turning in his grave if he knew what was going on.

Christ left His grave after 3 days, you mis-informed little fool.

OK I know you say he hasn't got one.

He did have one. Doesn't need one anymore.

Why don't they give some of that vast fortune to the poor.

What vast fortune?

Have you seen the gift shop in St Peters. Talk about money changers in the temple.

There is not gift shop 'in St Peter's'. It's a Basilica.
Very lame attempt at attacking the Catholic Church, but, she is bigger and better than you, so it wasn't a fair match. Sorry if I've embarrased you.

Oh touched a nerve there. Have me excommunicated. Have me burnt. It’s what the church did for hundred of years to those who refused to swallow the con. No wonder so many follow it. When you have been brainwashed since birth it's very difficult to disagree.

The Church for many years believed it was at the centre of the universe and that the world was flat. It imprisoned, tortured and murdered those who disagreed. Do you believe the world is flat, or round?

See here

Have you heard of the inquisition?

There is much evidence the church conspired to cover up the holocaust. It certainly didn't object at the time.

Net increase for the year 2000 was put at £17.7 billion. An awful lot of money. How can the church justify that when millions of children die of starvation every year? I know Christ said suffer the little children to come to me, but does the church have to send them off so early.

Accounts

If the church is so good and kind, why does it spend a fortune covering up the activities of its paedophile priests rather than thinking of the victims?

And finally, tell me this. If the church members really believe what they are taught, why are they all praying for John Paul's recovery? Surely his death must be the best thing that could happen to him. He would be in paradise and free from the illness that currently overwhelms him. Why are all his flock trying to keep him from such joy? Or is there a hint of doubt there and they know that when he has gone, his memory may linger on, but his body will rot.

[Sput]

Reducing your sexual partner to one- ie. your spouse is pretty much a key policy of the Christian Church- so why is that nothing to do with religion?

I was hoping you'd say that. It states REDUCING, and not to *one*. And that's not the exclusive domain of christianity as I pointed out, I know plenty of athiests who are in exclusive relationships. They're not following the word of the church, they are in loving relationships and get a lot out of that.

Criticising abistience is silly. What about a smoker who is instructed by Doctors to quit to save their lives. Everybody knows how difficult it is to quit smoking. Is the Doctor wrong to promote abstinence? Shouldn't he spend hundreds of pounds treating the patient anyway with no guarantee of sucess?

I didn't criticise abstinence, I just pointed out that the praise you give it is not entirely deserved.

Smoking is *completely* different too, I'm sure if there was a device that allows people to enjoy smoking with a MASSIVELY reduced risk, it would be a sell out in the shops. Also smoking has a cumulative effect on health whereas something like AIDS needs just one instance of infection to kill.

The distribution of condoms is paid for by taxpayers.

So are abstinence education programmes in the 'states. In fact they've told the kids such howlers as "touching a penis will get you pregnant".

It's an easy, quick solution because it seems something is being done. The longer term solution in the opinion of the Church is to promote abstience as means of creating a stable society and erradicating AIDS and HIV.

But if you're only delaying intercourse amongst people who don't necessarily know they're infected, what difference does that make? Plus who's to say what a stable society is?

You're also ignoring the fact that dispite the distribution of condoms, people still have unprotected sex and contract HIV. Who's fault is that?

I could ask you the same about abstinence! If people know about it why don't they do it? The condom thing is also a logistical nightmare, you can't expect every remote village to have a supply. Then there were horrendous rape tales of the Ugandan civil war, not to mention child soldiers intentionally infecting people with the virus.

You've yet the answer me on the question of the Church's role in all of this. It's not our job to distribute contraceptives, so how are we hindering the progress of the distribution? The Church doesn't force anyone to do anything. It's just giving folk a balanced, Christian perspective.

How is that not an oxymoron? Anyway, the church hinders progress on such things by spreading fear and doubt, evident in all the propaganda you quote.

[Anonymous]

The Church doesn't force anyone to do anything. It's just giving folk a balanced, Christian perspective.

Referring to the Guardian article posted by tillyoshea on page 2 of this thread:

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

Taking into account the wealth of scientific evidence showing that condoms are impermeable to HIV, that's your "balanced, Christian perspective" is it?

The fact remains that if a couple want to have sex, they will. If there are no condoms available because the church won't let them be distributed, then if one partner is HIV positive then of course the virus is going to be transmitted.

These are the cold hard facts. Plenty of references have been posted here by others - read them.

You're deluding yourself if you can't see the situation for what it is - it's as clear as crystal.

(Hello all by the way. Long-time lurker, first time poster!)

[Gavin Scott]

(Hello all by the way. Long-time lurker, first time poster!)

You are very, very welcome.

It's not an easy thing to say, but I would be doing myself a disservice if I don't;

I live with HIV. This is a very emotive and frankly difficult thread to read, as I *know* in every measurable sense that condoms can stop transmission of the virus. My story will remain just that, but you will have to take me at my word when I express my full confidence in the widely understood benefits of protected sex.

For any body or organisation to actively prevent the distribution of condoms is unconscionably alarming. In the face of overwhelming evidence the Catholic Church continues to misinform its followers, with such little regard for the consequences I find myself in disbelief.

Large Catholic families is one outcome of the forbidding of condom use - a not unpleasant consequence for the Church. Their membership ever increasing.

The spreading of a deadly, unforgiving and worsening global virus is another. Millions of us will die because of it.

That the Catholic Church and Pope have not rethought the traditional policy in light of this modern epidemic (or rather, rethought and dismissed any concern) is an act of evil, reeking of self interest.

[marksi]

Gavin,

I can't add much to what I said in the PM to you, but I will state openly that I deeply admire the balls it's taken for you to say what you've just said.

Now... why don't we have a "hugs" emoticon?

Mark.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the welcome Gavin!

It is a very emotive subject, and I too have the utmost admiration and respect for your courage in posting what you have.

The position of the catholic church is quite frankly abhorrent, and it's all the more upsetting to realise that there are some people in this world who cannot see that.

Steve