Pope-ing his clogs

[tillyoshea]

To support your argument, you're using one article by someone who admits "I've got no scientific standing to settle the argument about latex and its permeability or impermeability.", based on an off-the-cuff remark by a single medical anthropologist.

Working against you is the vast body of clinical evidence. A very brief search on MedLine brings up 140 papers which disagree with your point - top of the list, a BMJ piece from last year which concludes that "condoms are essential and effective" for HIV prevention, and one from the Journal of Sexually Transmitted Infections which states

As documented by solid epidemiological studies, condoms are effective for HIV prevention. Consistent condom use by HIV serodiscordant couples results in near zero transmission rates to the seronegative partner. Condom manufacturing and packaging processes have improved to the point that the initial quality of most devices is no longer questioned. Moreover, population level data from Thailand show the magnitude of health impact that can be achieved with targeted condom programming. During 1989–93, when reported condom use increased from 14% to 94% of commercial sex acts, cases of five STIs in men fell 79%. ... Although it takes more than distributing condoms to reduce HIV incidence ... condom promotion has been a critical component of all population level HIV success stories to date.

(Emphasis added - the sites now require registration, so I can't post links) Which source do you trust more? The host of medical sources, which have no other agenda than to prevent the spread of HIV, or a religious source which has a position to try and justify?

And so my answer to the question posed in your article has to be: Cardinal López Trujillo. And surely the logical conclusion of your argument is that all HIV positive people should be castrated?

[marksi]

CJ Cregg,

I'm not going to respond to the individual bits of random crap you've posted in response to my earlier post. I'll let anyone who reads it decide who they agree with and who they do not. I stand by every word I said.

You're clearly one of those people who believes the church is entirely correct in everything it does. You have been brainwashed and nothing I can say is going to change your opinion. You are a wonderful example of why I dislike organised religion. If the Church told you to sacrifice your eldest son I think perhaps you might consider it. Especially if it was a tradition.

As you appear capable of understanding the English language it's impossible that you cannot see how wrong the Catholic Church is on this issue, and how the Pope's refusal to condone the use of condoms has resulted in the deaths of many people. Either that doesn't matter to you, or you don't want to believe it. Sticking your fingers in your ears isn't going to solve the problem.

Condoms won't solve the problem but they will help. Why can't you comprehend that?

By the way, do you have any gay friends?

[marksi]

This just poped up on the wires...

VATICAN CITY, Feb 9 (AFP) - Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls raised hopes that Pope John Paul II could soon be discharged from hospital, saying he hoped an update on his condition due on Thursday "will be the last".

I'm sure he didn't mean it quite the way that reads, which is a pity.

[marksi]

The way they're shoving him from media gathering to public reading to another media showing is going to be the nail in his coffin - and proof that the church cares little for his wellbeing and more for keeping up appearences and tradition. Yes I know the pope must stay on duty until the day he dies, but for crying out loud the man needs rest. He's not a car which can be "done in half an hour, love". He needs some serious time off. A younger man perhaps could do it; he cannot.

They can retire, it's happened in the past.

Mind you, doing nothing isn't a bad situation as he'll be able to do little further damage.

[CJ-Cregg]

Just because I see the sense in something means I'm brainwashed? You honestly think you're the only well-informed, balanced one around? You're crazy. And your criticism of me is inductive of the kind of fascistic narrow-minded mentality you think you’re condemning when you criticise me/the Catholic Church.

Some of the most talented, gifted people- the smartest people the world has ever seen believed firmly in the truth the Catholic Church has, you’re smarter than they are ‘cos you read a 300 word ‘article’ in Attitude one summer? What a joke! I think you’re problem with the Catholic Church is that in your sub-conscience, you probably realise it’s right and that’s where all this aggressiveness is coming from.

[marksi]

Fact: The Catholic Church refuses to condone the use of condoms.

Fact: This has resulted in many people dying.

Your ability to ignore these facts is really quite incredible, and to defend the situation is shameful.

Have a read at this.

Article from The Guardian.

[Sput]

Ah, but the falls in the AIDS rate in Uganda have been credited mainly to lowering the number of sexual partners - nothing religious about that - alongside abstinence and condom use. The fact is there is no single approach that works to help wipe out AIDS amongst a populous, means the government has to use a message that targets the biggest number of demographics. In this case a combination of the above three. (Here's my source)

CJ_Cregg, your quoted paragraph did little to reinforce your views. First it was from a clearly religious website (yet you claim no-one but you is offering balance) and secondly the paragraph itself suggests that the STD transmission rate via condom failure increases where condoms are used. Well obviously! The condom failure rate is 0% where no condoms are used, but these are the people that are going to need them most, as they're having sex...



...and it looks like they're getting the message. These are the people who it needs to reach in order to get long-term improvement, because abstinence can only delay sex.

Indeed we can also show (yes, I like graphs) that the abstinence message can't really be due to the inherent two-thirds christian population of Uganda and their beliefs, because it's only just started ramping up *because of this message*. It's a means to an end, that's all.


Thus in the Ugandan case, religion really doesn't come into it.

[Marcus]

Just because I see the sense in something means I'm brainwashed? You honestly think you're the only well-informed, balanced one around? You're crazy. And your criticism of me is inductive of the kind of fascistic narrow-minded mentality you think you’re condemning when you criticise me/the Catholic Church.

Some of the most talented, gifted people- the smartest people the world has ever seen believed firmly in the truth the Catholic Church has, you’re smarter than they are ‘cos you read a 300 word ‘article’ in Attitude one summer? What a joke! I think you’re problem with the Catholic Church is that in your sub-conscience, you probably realise it’s right and that’s where all this aggressiveness is coming from.

I think we all realise that the Catholic Church is a evil organisation which has spread nothing but misery in its 2000 year existance.

It's track record is not good you know.Burning heritics who said the world was round, conspiring to cover up the Holocaust.

What makes you think it's right on this one.

I'm sure Christ will be turning in his grave if he knew what was going on. OK I know you say he hasn't got one. Why don't they give some of that vast fortune to the poor. Have you seen the gift shop in St Peters. Talk about money changers in the temple

[CJ-Cregg]

I think we all realise that the Catholic Church is a evil organisation which has spread nothing but misery in its 2000 year existance.

No, we're not all agreed. Nearly a billion members worldwide, are they all miserable on it's account?

It's track record is not good you know.Burning heritics who said the world was round, conspiring to cover up the Holocaust.

That's rubbish!

What makes you think it's right on this one.
I'm sure Christ will be turning in his grave if he knew what was going on.

Christ left His grave after 3 days, you mis-informed little fool.

OK I know you say he hasn't got one.

He did have one. Doesn't need one anymore.

Why don't they give some of that vast fortune to the poor.

What vast fortune?

Have you seen the gift shop in St Peters. Talk about money changers in the temple.

There is not gift shop 'in St Peter's'. It's a Basilica.
Very lame attempt at attacking the Catholic Church, but, she is bigger and better than you, so it wasn't a fair match. Sorry if I've embarrased you.

[CJ-Cregg]

Ah, but the falls in the AIDS rate in Uganda have been credited mainly to lowering the number of sexual partners - nothing religious about that - alongside abstinence

Reducing your sexual partner to one- ie. your spouse is pretty much a key policy of the Christian Church- so why is that nothing to do with religion?

Criticising abistience is silly. What about a smoker who is instructed by Doctors to quit to save their lives. Everybody knows how difficult it is to quit smoking. Is the Doctor wrong to promote abstinence? Shouldn't he spend hundreds of pounds treating the patient anyway with no guarantee of sucess?

The distribution of condoms is paid for by taxpayers. It's an easy, quick solution because it seems something is being done. The longer term solution in the opinion of the Church is to promote abstience as means of creating a stable society and erradicating AIDS and HIV. You're also ignoring the fact that dispite the distribution of condoms, people still have unprotected sex and contract HIV. Who's fault is that? You've yet the answer me on the question of the Church's role in all of this. It's not our job to distribute contraceptives, so how are we hindering the progress of the distribution? The Church doesn't force anyone to do anything. It's just giving folk a balanced, Christian perspective.

[marksi]

It's not a "Christian" perspective. It's a perspective of the Catholic Church.

Not sure why you seem to be descending to personal insults (desperation probably) but you're pissing me off now in the same way that someone standing in front of me constantly saying that 2+2=3 is right.

Do you think that wearing seatbelts is a good idea? They don't always stop people being killed in car crashes, but they do prevent some people from dying in such crashes. Condoms don't always prevent transmission of HIV but they do help.

Not sure what your argument will be with the Pope dies and his successor (or the one after that) decides that actually they should be promoting the use of condoms.

You're wrong on this issue, everyone here apart from you can see that.