Public Transport in your particular part of the region

[cwathen]

[585 words about how First are fools or some shit for not making sure every last bit of FGW branding has not yet been destroyed]

Which patently is not what I said at all, which you know since you were sad enough to count the words

#thatsnow2onelinepostsihave

[Alexia]

First are not going to waste money on debranding and rebranding every single set because a good deal are due to go elsewhere very shortly. Your beloved Class 143s are destined for the scrapheap, or possibly Northern. The 150/1s will also be following suit, the 150/2s will be kept on to run with the 158s in D&C. Turbos are coming west and we all know about the HSTs.

It's not like the new day of a new look for BBC1 or ITV. It will take time, man hours and money. FGW will soon disappear for good.

In the mean time, how about I send you some GWR compli-mints?

[cwathen]

First are not going to waste money on debranding and rebranding every single set because a good deal are due to go elsewhere very shortly. Your beloved Class 143s are destined for the scrapheap, or possibly Northern. The 150/1s will also be following suit, the 150/2s will be kept on to run with the 158s in D&C. Turbos are coming west and we all know about the HSTs.

The 143's may as well go up to Northern to add to the pacer powerhouse they have! They'll be pretty screwed though if they do all have to be withdrawn in 2019 for DDA compliance as is currently slated - what on earth could Northern come up with in such a short period of time to replace all that stock?

Surprised the 150/1s are going. They badly need a refurb in line with that done on the 150/2s by Wessex but mechnically they're still pretty solid trains despite their age and provided they are diagrammed to run by themselves there's no real disadvantage to them.

I'll be a bit disappointed if the 158s are deemed to be interchangeable with 150/2s as this will mean the extra speed of the 158 won't be utilised.

Either way, I'll be glad to get them back down here once the Turbos go to Bristol and if we end up with just 153s, 150/2s and 158s in Devon and Cornwall again then it'll improve the stock allocation to a level...which we already had 10 years ago before 150/1s and pacers were dumped on us. Yay for progress...I think.

In the mean time, how about I send you some GWR compli-mints?

OOh would love some!

[WillPS]

[585 words about how First are fools or some shit for not making sure every last bit of FGW branding has not yet been destroyed]

Which patently is not what I said at all, which you know since you were sad enough to count the words

#thatsnow2onelinepostsihave

Yes. I sat there and counted them all. I definitely didn't copy and paste it into Word.

First are not going to waste money on debranding and rebranding every single set because a good deal are due to go elsewhere very shortly. Your beloved Class 143s are destined for the scrapheap, or possibly Northern. The 150/1s will also be following suit, the 150/2s will be kept on to run with the 158s in D&C. Turbos are coming west and we all know about the HSTs.

It's not like the new day of a new look for BBC1 or ITV. It will take time, man hours and money. FGW will soon disappear for good.

In the mean time, how about I send you some GWR compli-mints?

The Northern invitation to tender insists that no Pacers are allowed to be used beyond 2019, refurbished or not. Promises to that effect have been made in Parliament on both sides of the election. If the 143s go North, it would be a very short tenure.

It's interesting to note that the Porterbrook "ePacer" refurb programme has fallen flat on its arse.

The only place I can see Pacers continuing post 2020 is the Valley Lines, but I reckon electrification is far enough off that it'll be worth taking some of these "D-Trains" based on LU stock.

[Whataday]

After the mess FGW made over last weekend, underestimating the amount of people using the services to Cardiff for the Rugby World Cup, it's not surprising they don't want to be painting their new brand everywhere just yet! They've actually got quite lucky in that the press are still referring to the company as FGW in all their negative reports.

[Alexia]

Pure coincidence that the franchise end/start date coincided with the RWC match in Cardiff. 10 extra trains have been scheduled for tonight, although one wonders what the logic is in having a game featuring a Tier 1 nation at a 74k seater stadium finish slap bang in the middle of Cardiff rush hour.

My comment about Northern getting the Pacers was quite tongue in cheek; a mere jab at Northern's unfailing reputation as being the dumpster truck for all the UK's life-expired rustbuckets.

I think how it will work is 150s will replace 143s on branches, 158s will replace 150s on long-distance runs (the 0623 Bristol - Penzance for one!) and then the Thames Turbos will supplant the 158s on Pompey, Brighton, Malvern and Weymouth runs.

150/1s could still stay but their lack of a corridor and 3+2 seating arrangement make them difficult to make disability compliant. A 150/2 has already been completed and looks brilliant.

[cwathen]

Yes. I sat there and counted them all. I definitely didn't copy and paste it into Word.

...because copying and pasting it into Word was so much better and not at all a pointless pursuit in an attempt to make belittlement a replacement for actual debate. Whatever floats your boat Will.

My comment about Northern getting the Pacers was quite tongue in cheek; a mere jab at Northern's unfailing reputation as being the dumpster truck for all the UK's life-expired rustbuckets.

In all seriousness though, FGW/GWR only have 8 pacers and it's already known how they will be replaced once withdrawn. In contrast, Northern are running over a hundred of the nasty little boxes, and at present (AFAIK) there's no clear plan for how they will be replaced. Whilst of course 'cascaded 150s/158s' will be thrown about as the solution to everything as usual, there are only so many of these trains around, most of which are needed by the TOCs who already have them. And building new DMU stock seems to be the least fashionable thing in the world at present, with all focus being on electrification and flagship long distance trains.

Quite surprised the refurb proposals weren't deemed sufficient to keep them running - 144012 looks quite snazzy and modern with the changes that have been made and it is fully compliant. I know that ultimately a pacer is still a shit train and you can't get away from the fact that you're transporting people around on a bus bolted to a freight chassis but as a stopgap solution to buy another 10 years or so for them to plan proper replacements I'm surprised that wasn't deemed acceptable.

I do think it a distinct possibility that pacers may face being withdrawn from Northern with there being nothing to replace them, and I struggle to believe that will be allowed to happen in the name of DDA compliance or franchise specification, I believe an exemption for Northern will end up being made on both counts - and of course with an exemption it is entirely on the cards that they will just plough on for another decade with nothing at all done to them.

Code: Select all

I think how it will work is 150s will replace 143s on branches, 158s will replace 150s on long-distance runs (the 0623 Bristol - Penzance for one!) and then the Thames Turbos will supplant the 158s on Pompey, Brighton, Malvern and Weymouth runs.

They just need to bring a catering trolley back to the longer distances services and we'll be back to how things were before FGW took these routes over.

Is it known yet what will be done with the reformed 3 car 158's? Will they be put back to their original configuration to provide more units or kept as they are to provide more capacity at the expense of having fewer units?

[Alexia]

I think they'll be either kept as they are, or reformed into semi-permanent 4-car sets. Capacity is going to be everything come electrification. The number of units isn't the issue at the moment - after all, 10x3 car sets provides the same capacity as 15x2 car sets, you just need them to work more and not sit in sidings.


EDIT : Creative / designer types might like this article. http://www.creativereview.co.uk/cr-blog ... n-railway/

[Andrew]

I think everyone is fearing but expecting that the pacers will be given a stay of execution, both in terms of DDA and franchise spec. The replacement plan will be 'paused'

Problem with the refurbished one is the reduced seating accommodation caused by the massive DDA toilet. Pacers already have less seating in the first place. I'm not sure what is happening with the refurbished unit but I believe it is either operating on a very limited lightly loaded diagram, or permanently coupled to another unit.

[WillPS]

150/1s could still stay but their lack of a corridor and 3+2 seating arrangement make them difficult to make disability compliant. A 150/2 has already been completed and looks brilliant.

Why is lack of corridor an issue? Every Sprinter corridor is non-compliant anyway; with the exception of the interim corridors on 158/159 units (the end units remained non compliant for compatibility).

As for seating... well, replace it? They've got another 10 years in them, surely?

Yes. I sat there and counted them all. I definitely didn't copy and paste it into Word.

...because copying and pasting it into Word was so much better and not at all a pointless pursuit in an attempt to make belittlement a replacement for actual debate. Whatever floats your boat Will.

Just because you are so obsessed with yourself that you can't see the point doesn't mean there isn't one.

My comment about Northern getting the Pacers was quite tongue in cheek; a mere jab at Northern's unfailing reputation as being the dumpster truck for all the UK's life-expired rustbuckets.

In all seriousness though, FGW/GWR only have 8 pacers and it's already known how they will be replaced once withdrawn. In contrast, Northern are running over a hundred of the nasty little boxes, and at present (AFAIK) there's no clear plan for how they will be replaced. Whilst of course 'cascaded 150s/158s' will be thrown about as the solution to everything as usual, there are only so many of these trains around, most of which are needed by the TOCs who already have them. And building new DMU stock seems to be the least fashionable thing in the world at present, with all focus being on electrification and flagship long distance trains.

Northern actually began replacing their Pacers around a decade ago after receiving a significant number of 158s displaced directly and indirectly by TransPennine Express' new 185s and newish 170s. They sat in the sidings in Blackpool awaiting their fate. FGW, desperate for stock, took a dozen of them. Northern, desperate for stock themselves given the massive growth on their network, took the remaining ones back.

It was long the plan that 3 units would be scrapped following the conversion of the Oldham line to Metrolink. When the Oldham Loop shut in 2009 a trio of Pacers which were funded by GMPTE went in to storage for all of 2 weeks before returning to bolster services which had seen a massive rise in patronage following the loop's closure. Now the Oldham line has a regular Metrolink service, and still those 3 units remain in service.

Quite surprised the refurb proposals weren't deemed sufficient to keep them running - 144012 looks quite snazzy and modern with the changes that have been made and it is fully compliant. I know that ultimately a pacer is still a shit train and you can't get away from the fact that you're transporting people around on a bus bolted to a freight chassis but as a stopgap solution to buy another 10 years or so for them to plan proper replacements I'm surprised that wasn't deemed acceptable.

They are life expired. The ROSCOs "purchased" them for a total of nothing (given the poor scrap value of the time). It's anything but acceptable to consider them suitable for anything any longer, new seats and loo or not. Apart from anything, they are already small units. Once you've reduced the seat count further (as per ePacer spec), you have naff all seats, and the same shit ride, same publicity issue.

I do think it a distinct possibility that pacers may face being withdrawn from Northern with there being nothing to replace them, and I struggle to believe that will be allowed to happen in the name of DDA compliance or franchise specification, I believe an exemption for Northern will end up being made on both counts - and of course with an exemption it is entirely on the cards that they will just plough on for another decade with nothing at all done to them.

Well there's a competitive tender out which specifically rules out the use of stock without bogies in the Northern franchise.

I repeat, these are knackered, life expired trains. There is no need to fear their demise.

[Pete]

What about the refurb D stock?