80s school hymn book

[Gavin Scott]

Don't get me wrong, I respect the moral guidance that religion can offer. I take Gavin's point about consequences, but I don't believe that religious education it the sole way such lessons can be taught.

Well, religious studies (Christianity with reference to other faiths) is part of the curriculum I think, as is personal and social development. Two hours a week of each when I was in school.

I'm sure there was a certain amount of crossover of moral guidance in those classes, so I taken your point; however - one was reinforced by the, dare I say, omnipresence of the church. You don't have to have set foot in one as a child, but you see them in our towns; you hear God referenced on a Sunday on the television; in school you learn the Queen is the Head of the Church of England, and so on. That has the effect of legitimatising these teachings of right/wrong and action/consequence.

The hymn signing in school assembly is another part of the "wraparound" religion UK children are aware of.

It seems to me - being agnostic, that one might at least take the opportunity to shoehorn in some balanced moral mind-sets to our young while they're being bombarded with other information - much of it which doesn't appear to stick. Nothing hardcore fundamental - just an understanding of ethical behaviour to help develop a moral code.

I'm taking the pragmatic approach - as the 2000 year old church seems to be stubbornly clinging on.

[Mr Q]

Well, I have no problem in principle with 'right' and 'wrong' being taught in schools, although I think it's worth asking what exactly those concepts are and how they should be taught. Certainly if we were to take the Catholic church's view of morality, for instance, I happen to believe that would be a step backwards for society. There is a case for communicating the values of basic decency and courtesy without necessarily engaging in the moral preaching which so many people rightly object to. The question then is, is the church best placed to do that? I'm not sure it is. I believe it can be taught in schools without a religious influence at all.

In saying that, my preference is actually for parents to be responsible for instilling good values in their children. I put greater stock in the fundamental institution of the family than I do in the institutions of the state. I guess fundamentally I think schools should primarily focus on making our kids smarter rather than necessarily 'better' human beings - though, of course, those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive things.

[cdd]

I have no problem with parents electing to put their kids into religious classes. That should be their choice.

I don't agree: it should be the choice of the child. Religion relies on family to propogate it through the generations, and I don't think the schools should be serving parents in this way: the focus should be on giving the child a balanced education.

[Sput]

I have no problem with parents electing to put their kids into religious classes. That should be their choice.

I don't agree: it should be the choice of the child. Religion relies on family to propogate it through the generations, and I don't think the schools should be serving parents in this way: the focus should be on giving the child a balanced education.

You want a 6-year-old child to decide about their religion and not expect them to (i) be leaned on by their parents or (ii) just follow their friends?

[cdd]

That's the very problem with religion: children are too young for that degree of free thought, and so 99% of religious people are thus because their parents are. So I think the state should if anything act as a force counter to that, by not making religion come across as something you inherit.

[Sput]

So are you saying that children should make that decision even though they're not capable of free thought?

[cdd]

Nope, I'm merely saying it should act in the interest of the child by not allowing the parent to decide whether or not the child "must" take part in such classes, since parents are just as guilty as institutions of such indoctrination. Given the difficulty of children not necessarily having "free wil", I think the default should be for no such class to take place until the subject is able to make the decision.

[Mr Q]

cdd, while I applaud the message of free choice, children don't have the legal authority to make those sorts of decisions. And frankly, though it pains me to say this, nor should they. I suspect there are plenty of 12 year olds who would rather not go to school at all if you gave them that choice. But would that be in their best interests? Probably not. They are unable to conceptualise the long term consequences from such a choice. That level and capacity for judgment is not something that we are born, but rather something that develops over time.

In saying that, if children expressed the view that they didn't want to attend religious classes, I would hope that their parents would respect that choice if it were well reasoned and cogently argued.

[James H]

I want to make this absolutely clear; I have no religious beliefs at all, but do believe that there may well be "something up there".

But hymns are often amazing. Sometimes you get very samey hymns that all have crotchet-crotchet-crotchet (da da da da da da da) patterns all the time, but then you get the one-offs, the really fantastic hymns that make people smile. If the spirit of religion was like that all the time then I for one maybe would be religious... I'm not saying we should all be God-loving morons, but that we should still come together and celebrate life, rather than Christianity.

[Nini]

Tsk James, I never had you down as a filthy hippy. An agnostic maybe but never "let's love each other".

[rob]

We had an overhead projector.

Did you ever get to be the lad in charge of moving the words up the screen every so often during assembly? A chance that was constantly denied to the likes of me...

I did it once... was better than singing!

We used to have Hymn Practise at school on a Friday, and sing in Assembly when the vicar came in on a Monday. Some of the old favourites, included Cauliflowers Fluffy, and a song written by the old music teacher called Abandon Ship. Those were the days...