Metropol

I'm in America as we speak

cdd wrote:I'm in America as we speak

whereabouts?

Let's face it, the government's case for ID cards is sooo much stronger in the wake of today's attacks. If they had already been in use, the following would almost certainly have happened...

POLICEMAN: Ello ello ello, now then Sir, your skin has a distinct brown hue. Maybe I could see your ID card...
TERRORIST: Why of course Officer, here it is...
POLICEMAN (reading from card): 'Al Quaeda Terrorist' eh? It's down to the station with you Sonny Jim - you're nicked!
TERRORIST: Foiled again!

[..and we'd all be safe.

Despite the tounge-in-cheekedness, I agree. I see no compelling reason to disagree with national identity cards. Never mind the fact that over half of the country allready effectively carry a national ID card in the form of a photocard driving licence, what bad can possibly come of their introduction?

The only thing I disagree with is the posibility of us being required to pay for our compulsory ID card - if the government want us to have them, then the government can fund them. Beyond that, compulsory ID cards are a damned good idea and if they will help prevent incidents like this occuring then they can't come fast enough for me.

Let's bring the 'ID cards would breach our human rights' brigade up to speed here - as today has demonstrated, we live in dangerous times. And a simple measure like being required to carry a compulsory national ID (which let's face it, is hardly a big deal) could make our country that much safer. If there's one lesson I hope that is learnt from today it's that all the eggheads need to get their heads our of the sand and realise that proposing to introduce ID cards is one of the best ideas the present government has ever come up with.

National ID? Prison for those who don't carry it? Bring it on!!!

cwathen wrote:Despite the tounge-in-cheekedness, I agree. I see no compelling reason to disagree with national identity cards. Never mind the fact that over half of the country allready effectively carry a national ID card in the form of a photocard driving licence, what bad can possibly come of their introduction?

A driving license is an entitlement to drive. A passport is an entitlement to go abroad. A compulsory ID card is a license to be alive. I don't need a license to live in my own country.

ID cards are the first step to information tyranny.

cwathen wrote:The only thing I disagree with is the posibility of us being required to pay for our compulsory ID card - if the government want us to have them, then the government can fund them. Beyond that, compulsory ID cards are a damned good idea and if they will help prevent incidents like this occuring then they can't come fast enough for me.

Let's bring the 'ID cards would breach our human rights' brigade up to speed here - as today has demonstrated, we live in dangerous times. And a simple measure like being required to carry a compulsory national ID (which let's face it, is hardly a big deal) could make our country that much safer. If there's one lesson I hope that is learnt from today it's that all the eggheads need to get their heads our of the sand and realise that proposing to introduce ID cards is one of the best ideas the present government has ever come up with.

National ID? Prison for those who don't carry it? Bring it on!!!

Spain had ID cards. It did not prevent March 11.

ID cards would not have prevented today's atrocities.

There is no logical imperative to have ID cards. It will do absolutely nothing to prevent anything. History has proven that time and time again.

richardwitham wrote:I truely believe today is the day we all became british.

What sentimental bollocks.

Britain can not behave the way it does in the world - being an active participant in the massacre of 100,000 innocents since March 2003 and 500,000 innocents as a member of the Security Council imposing sanctions on Iraq, and not expect people to react against it. The poor Britons killed today were no more at fault than the Iraqis.

I love my country - I love my fellow countrymen and women. Unfortunately, today was payback for the way our elected dictatorships carry on around the world. We, the average citizens, pay the price.

Pffh!

I've been waiting for this to happen for nearly four years, and when it does - what an anticlimax it was.

No images of big fireballs over Parliament that would be etched into our minds

No Airliners nicked from Heathrow and slammed into Buckingham Palace

Just a few fireworks underground - I think we deserved a better thrashing than what we had today.

>>I am of course being very tongue-in-cheek, dears<<

johnnyboy wrote:

richardwitham wrote:I truely believe today is the day we all became british.

What sentimental bollocks.

Britain can not behave the way it does in the world - being an active participant in the massacre of 100,000 innocents since March 2003 and 500,000 innocents as a member of the Security Council imposing sanctions on Iraq, and not expect people to react against it. The poor Britons killed today were no more at fault than the Iraqis.

Here, here.

Terrible though it is to see the loss of any innocent life, no matter how big or small, Britain has got off incredibly lightly, assuming there are to be no more attacks. We supported the Americans in the most horrendous and illegal atrocities in Iraq in which no regard whatsoever was shown towards innocent lives. If Britain was invaded and occupied by another country on the grounds that "they wanted to topple our Prime Minister", resulting in thousands of British civilians being slaughtered, I daresay there'd be a handful of Britons seeking revenge for the massacre of their families and the flattening of their houses.

And this is all assuming that yesterday's bombs did have something to do with Al Qaida. It's depressingly predictable to see the government and media pointing the finger at Al Qaida almost straight away without a shred of evidence (and there are always dozens of groups that claim responsibility for any bombing - this hardly counts as proof).

The truth is that nobody has a clue who planted these bombs or why. It's quite plausible that it could all have been the work of one deranged individual. Remember the London nail bomber in 1999? The attacks yesterday were no more sophisticated.

cwathen wrote:Beyond that, compulsory ID cards are a damned good idea and if they will help prevent incidents like this occuring then they can't come fast enough for me ... a simple measure like being required to carry a compulsory national ID (which let's face it, is hardly a big deal) could make our country that much safer.

I understand your point of view; I agree that we do live in dangerous times, and that measures should be taken to ensure that we are safer. However, I believe in the fundamental principles of privacy and freedom, rights which our predecessors fought for in the Second World War.

I am seriously concerned that the Identity Cards Bill currently in Parliament will unnecessarily erode these rights and freedoms - without making us safer (the Madrid bombers carried identity cards). It is not the piece of plastic which I will have to carry around in my wallet that I am against as such, it is the National Identity Register which will be implemented which concerns me. This database will contain records for every citizen, and it is not unlikely that the amount of data which will be added to the register will increase over time. It is also likely that the number of organisations and people who will be allowed access to our data - without our knowledge or permission - will be increased.

I do not believe that we should have to make ourselves accountable to the State. In fact, I would much rather the State make itself more accountable to the British people - after all, the British electorate voted them in!

cwathen wrote:The only thing I disagree with is the posibility of us being required to pay for our compulsory ID card - if the government want us to have them, then the government can fund them.

This is extremely unlikely: the Government has already said that the scheme will cost over £5.5bn. You must also remember the other projects that the Government has undertaken - the Scottish Parliament, the air traffic control computer systems, the London Ambulance Service computer systems, etc. - all of them went over budget (and the London Ambulance system was withdrawn because it was so bad - people were dying because ambulances weren't getting sent). Even schemes by my local council have spiralled out of control!

Remember that much of the technology that will be used for the Identity Card/Register scheme is unproven. Mistakes will be made, things will go wrong, more money will be thrown at it - and who will have to pay?

I would much rather that HMG spent our money on measures which are much more likely to be beneficial: more police, an improved National Health Service, better schools, etc.

cwathen wrote:National ID? Prison for those who don't carry it? Bring it on!!!

Surely the courts would be better put to use convicting burglars, rapists, murderers, terrorists, and the (already overcrowded) prisons to hold them?

MarkN wrote:I am seriously concerned that the Identity Cards Bill currently in Parliament will unnecessarily erode these rights and freedoms - without making us safer (the Madrid bombers carried identity cards). It is not the piece of plastic which I will have to carry around in my wallet that I am against as such, it is the National Identity Register which will be implemented which concerns me. This database will contain records for every citizen, and it is not unlikely that the amount of data which will be added to the register will increase over time. It is also likely that the number of organisations and people who will be allowed access to our data - without our knowledge or permission - will be increased.

I do not believe that we should have to make ourselves accountable to the State. In fact, I would much rather the State make itself more accountable to the British people - after all, the British electorate voted them in!

Very well said, sir.

Indeed, our esteemed Home Secretary and chief pimp for invasion of privacy, Charles Clark has told BBC News that identity cards would not have stopped the bombings yesterday.

I refuse to walk around with a license to be a citizen. I am a citizen by birth and I will not carry ID around with me at all times. My land of birth is meant to be a free country - but I can never truly be free if I have to be tagged all the time.

I can't remember who said it but whoever sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

I'm generally in favour of ID cards, but any claims that they would restrict terrorists are idiotic.

Carrying a card would not limit terrorism, but it could make it easier for many government departments to do their jobs more effectively. If properly implemented a well maintained central database is simply more efficient.

It probably won't be a case of ID cards OR more police etc. we can probably do both, and complaining about who pays for it is entirely pointless (just think who exactly funds the government).

With biometric details being needed for Passports, if the collection and implementation can be combined with ID cards, the specific ID card related costs will fall.

I'm not sure any privacy fears are well founded, but then again I wouldn't complain about a national DNA database.

johnnyboy wrote:I can't remember who said it but whoever sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Attributed to Benjamin Franklin.

(source: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin)