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Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Tue 03 May, 2011 21.57
by Chie
marksi wrote:Here in this part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland we use the following systems for our elections:
Stormont: Proportional Representation.
Local Councils: Proportional Representation.
European Union: Proportional Representation.
Westminster: First Past the Post.
We haven't got expensive voting machines. The public here has no difficulty in using PR. The counting does take a bit longer. (Watch for yourself on Friday from 1500 on BBC ONE NI/1900 on BBC TWO NI).
I fail to understand why some people can think that a candidate acceptable to 40% of voters is preferable to a candidate acceptable to 60% of voters. Are we doing democracy here or are we discussing survival of the fittest?
Tell that to the self-same AV proponents who wanted a Lib/Lab coalition (52%) over a Lib/Con coalition (59%).
I think many voters would prefer PR to AV, but a vote for AV is not a vote for PR. It's a vote for AV. Once they know we're happy to settle for AV, there will never be another discussion about electoral reform again within our lifetimes.
Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Tue 03 May, 2011 22.01
by cdd
Chie wrote:Once they know we're happy to settle for AV, there will never be another discussion about electoral reform again within our lifetimes.
Is that a fact.
I mean you could just as easily make the argument that a vote for AV would pave the way for future reform.
Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Tue 03 May, 2011 22.10
by bilky asko
marksi wrote:Here in this part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland we use the following systems for our elections:
Stormont: Proportional Representation.
Local Councils: Proportional Representation.
European Union: Proportional Representation.
Westminster: First Past the Post.
It's not quite that simple...
Stormont: Single Transferable Vote
Local Councils: Plurality-at-large voting (not Proportional Representation) in England and Wales, Single Transferable Vote in Scotland and Northern Ireland
European Union: D'Hondt Proportional Representation, except in Northern Ireland with the Single Transferable Vote
Westminster: First Past the Post
Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Tue 03 May, 2011 22.14
by dosxuk
Chie wrote:dosxuk wrote:It's not "effectively getting 4 goes", it's allowing people to say "if my first preference is rejected, I would rather this candidate got my vote instead".
Even so, each preference carries the same weight as the voter's first preference, even though they like their fourth preference less than their first preference.
When you go to the shops for bread, if they don't have your preferred brand and type, do you go "sod it, I'll just go without", or do you look at other brands of your preffered type (white/brown/wholemeal) and buy that instead?
Obivously some people need a specific type of bread (gluten free?) and if there isn't any, they have to go without. But if you like white bread, there's a bewildering array of brands, one of which you prefer, but it's not the end of the world if that one's not in stock, as long as you don't have to have wholemeal.
Chie wrote:It's ridiculous.
I agree.
Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Tue 03 May, 2011 22.17
by Chie
cdd wrote:Chie wrote:Once they know we're happy to settle for AV, there will never be another discussion about electoral reform again within our lifetimes.
Is that a fact.
I mean you could just as easily make the argument that a vote for AV would pave the way for future reform.
AV
is reform.
We get to PR by eliminating other options, not embracing them.
Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Tue 03 May, 2011 23.30
by bilky asko
Tomorrow's Independent front page shows their support for AV.
Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Wed 04 May, 2011 06.35
by marksi
Chie wrote:cdd wrote:Chie wrote:Once they know we're happy to settle for AV, there will never be another discussion about electoral reform again within our lifetimes.
Is that a fact.
I mean you could just as easily make the argument that a vote for AV would pave the way for future reform.
AV
is reform.
We get to PR by eliminating other options, not embracing them.
How many times in the last 100 years has has change been offered?
Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Wed 04 May, 2011 14.43
by Chie
You're comparing two completely different centuries there. A lot of things happened in the 20th century that nobody in the 19th century could have envisaged happening. Saying yes to AV removes a coalition bargaining chip from the table of any future negotiations. "We want a referendum on PR." "Well people said they were happy to settle for AV so that would be rather a waste of money." Why do you think core Labour are supporting AV?
Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Wed 04 May, 2011 17.28
by WillPS
There is no option to state what you'd really like, so that argument would be completely null and void. Whatever the result of this election, I hope and expect that the Liberal Democrats will continue to campaign for electoral reform.
Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Wed 04 May, 2011 18.27
by marksi
Fun fact of the day: a Conservative government introducing Proportional Representation to Northern Irish elections, to deal with the issue of preferential voting, came up with the slogan "PR - as easy as 1,2,3."
Re: The Alternative Vote
Posted: Wed 04 May, 2011 18.38
by Gavin Scott
marksi wrote:Fun fact of the day: a Conservative government introducing Proportional Representation to Northern Irish elections, to deal with the issue of preferential voting, came up with the slogan "PR - as easy as 1,2,3."
Goodness me. I can't imagine they would do this because it serves their chances better.
*COUGH*
