Metropol

The sheer number of CCTV cameras across our cities means that a significant number of these people will be identified (by people on the social media networks that the Daily Mail feels are to blame for society's ills) and brought before the court.

The problem is that the punishments they receive will not be the deterrent that is required to prevent this from happening in future. We need some novel means of punishments. Community service sentences aren't going to do the job.

marksi wrote:We need some novel means of punishments.

Set fire to their homes, perhaps?

iSon wrote:
I don't envy the police, and I don't think it's far to criticise any officers on the ground. However, it seems that many forces are fearful of the retribution should they need to get in the thick of it and start knocking some heads together. It also shines a light on plans to cut police budgets as well - if nothing else comes out of this then I think it's a very good debate to have.

As with everything, the police can't get involved. Mainly it falls down to staff in the various control rooms (or Tally Ho MICR in the case of Birmingham), for them to engage they need authorisation from the CAD (Computer Aided Dispatch) officer (Sergeant or Inspector) and they cannot see what is going on on the ground if the area isn't CCTV covered, CAD won't allow officers to engage in fear of making the wrong decision, but as they're not on the ground, they haven't the slightest clue what's going on, many of them only leave the office to get a cup of tea - it's stupid. Instead normal P/OST (Operational Safety Training) rules apply so they can only draw, strike and use their PPE if they feel they are in immediate danger. Sadly this frustrates so many officers as it means they're given equipment but can't use it as they wish.

Then there is basic PSU training - If they do they break the lines, they break the lines and small groups of officers get outnumbered and can become mobbed, as Airwave traffic comes at a premium they can't use their radios to shout up for assistance, I counted 19 'red button' activations last night just because YM were overloaded with calls and reports from officers, it's mad.

Another thing, PACE. The Police and Criminal Evidence Act, for every DP it takes 2 officers off the streets, they can't suspend PACE so they have to limit arrests to those necessary. At the moment, the situation in Birmingham is as follows:
1,400 police officers are in Birmingham, drafted in from LPUs and OSU, plus 1,000 from other forces on Mutual Aid, including officers from Staffs, West Mercia, Warks, South Wales, BTP, Lothian and Borders and Strathclyde.

There is about 1,000 looters/criminals in Central Brum at any one time, now if they arrested all of these that would wipe all the police off the streets and leave them with levels unable to contain, detain and control the remainder of hangers on.

Further to this, the police themselves, even if they feel they can use their PPE are reluctant to do so as it means spending 2 hours filling out use of force forms and the questions aren't why and when, the questions are more like this:
"Did you rack your ASP?"
"Did you use your ASP?"
"Was it effective?"
"What could improve your ASP?"
"How did you use your ASP?"
"On who(m) did you use your ASP?"
"Why did you feel it necessary to use your ASP? - Remember, P.L.A.N."

Another thing is the Special Constabulary, the SC is a brilliant thing, brilliant officers but the forces won't public order train them, so they can only be utilised as backfill on LPUs replacing staff who have been drafted in on cover...

The situation elsewhere is bad too, GMP for example have had complaints for being too harsh. I myself think they have the right idea....


Sorry that is so long, but it was meant to explain how the police are frustrated as we are in that they can't always act, sorry if I bored you to death!

I am alarmed and saddened by the events around the country these last few days. I am ashamed of some of my fellow countrymen. we are not and will never be an Anarchic state. FFS this is England not Syria. At least the Syrians have a reason to protest ( they don't have a currys to loot).

I am so fucking angry.

I too find it fascinating; we all obey the law, because it's the law and usually right, but when a large group just break that cycle, the country goes mad with little control. The sentences being handed down are far too short - 10 or 16 weeks is not nearly enough. They should be made to pay for the damage they caused, and the value of the stolen goods, even in cases where the goods have been recovered. I imagine having £20,000 to pay would significantly reduce their desire to do it again. Perhaps the money should be taken in the same way as student loans are repaid; a certain amount taken out each month, so as not to drive them into crime again.

Lorns wrote:I am alarmed and saddened by the events around the country these last few days. I am ashamed of some of my fellow countrymen. we are not and will never be an Anarchic state. FFS this is England not Syria. At least the Syrians have a reason to protest ( they don't have a currys to loot).

I am so fucking angry.

It's really quite depressing isn't it - the willingness of so many people to actually go out, loot, set fires, cause damage to people's homes and businesses without even thinking or caring about the state that it leaves people in. It wouldn't have surprised me if there was only a few people doing this but the sheer amount of people and the fact that it's spread to other cities is just utterly shameful, and embarassing and damaging to the reputation of this country.

Not only this but the idiotic people on Facebook and the like, saying 'OMG shut up about the riots nobody even cares anymore' and 'lets go and join the riots LOL jk' really pisses me off too. So many ignorant people who seem to be as intelligent as a kitchen sponge.

Mattarz wrote:I too find it fascinating; we all obey the law, because it's the law and usually right, but when a large group just break that cycle, the country goes mad with little control. The sentences being handed down are far too short - 10 or 16 weeks is not nearly enough. They should be made to pay for the damage they caused, and the value of the stolen goods, even in cases where the goods have been recovered. I imagine having £20,000 to pay would significantly reduce their desire to do it again. Perhaps the money should be taken in the same way as student loans are repaid; a certain amount taken out each month, so as not to drive them into crime again.

1927: A bit more information about the two men that have been sentenced to 10 weeks and 16 weeks over rioting in Manchester. Jason Ullett, aged 38, was convicted of using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour and sentenced to 10 weeks. Ricky Gemmell, aged 18, was sentenced to 16 weeks in youth custody.

Did they actually steal? I have a wretched connection at the moment so can't find much on them.

Mattarz wrote:I too find it fascinating; we all obey the law, because it's the law and usually right, but when a large group just break that cycle, the country goes mad with little control. The sentences being handed down are far too short - 10 or 16 weeks is not nearly enough. They should be made to pay for the damage they caused, and the value of the stolen goods, even in cases where the goods have been recovered. I imagine having £20,000 to pay would significantly reduce their desire to do it again. Perhaps the money should be taken in the same way as student loans are repaid; a certain amount taken out each month, so as not to drive them into crime again.

We don't know what crimes the two sentanced have committed. Notably, all the news sources are descibing it as "public disorder" rather than burglary or violence. 10/16 weeks for not going home when the Police tell you is a pretty harsh sentance.

I'm encouraged that the people in London arrested, and convicted of burglary, have not yet been sentanced as 6 months is insufficient. I would be very surprised if these referrals to the crown courts imposed sentances less than that. Also encouraging is the report tonight from Manchester Council stating that anyone caught on CCTV who lives in a council house will be evicted, even if it's their parents on the agreement. This alone will probably do more for getting parents to start taking responsibility for their offspring, which is probably the only thing which will actually kick start a change in attitude.

What sickens me, more than the rioting or the looting, is that there are STILL do-gooders trying to pin some sort of reasonable explanation on this, trying to understand the problem and who want to work with those involved as they continue down their path of some daft sociological ideology of a utopian society which doesn't exist.

I've now heard four different 'views from the looters', and there is no common message at all, the 'reasons' range from it being about showing the police that they can do what they want, to it being about the removal of EMA and the closure of youth facilities, to it being about Polish immigration. The only common theme in their 'viewpoints' are that they amount to a few broken words which are not even full sentences, let alone arguments.

Can these yoghurt-knitters really not see that trying to 'understand' the scum underclass which permeates far too much of our society is exactly what has allowed this to happen - giving them a platform and trying to respond to their 'concerns' as if they have some sort of genuine grievance lends them a credibility and a legitimacy which they just don't deserve.

I couldn't give two flying fucks why some hoody thinks that smashing up a shop, looting it for all it's worth and then setting fire to it is OK because 'the government won't pay for people to go to college any more init' - I don't need or want to understand them - all I care about is that they are stamped on and surpressed until they are no more. There is no justification for their attitude and it is for them to understand why decent people find them repulsive and it is for them to change their ways, not for us to try and find some common ground and build bridges with them.

I agree with you cwathen. I would usually consider myself left wing but it's being too pansy and liberal that has left us in this situation. Duggan had an illegal firearm and was rightly removed from the streets. This should have been praised by government, by the media and by the people. Instead they call an investigation to see why a gun toting gangster wannabe ended up shot and to see if the police hurt anyone's feelings.

Unfortunately, for fear of being "too 1984", we've gone too far the other way.

I freely acknowledge being right wing in many of my views, and it's really not something I'm ashamed of. But that doesn't mean I desire a 1984-esque society.

However, I do genuinely believe that the softly-softly approach, the idea that bad behaviour must be understood rather than simply punished, the view that 'discipline' and 'punishment' are dirty words, that the police should cease being a 'force' and must become a 'service', the 'kids have rights' crap and all the other namby pamby views which have progressively permeated our society over the past 20-30 years will ultimately lead us down a path when dysfunction and disorder will reach such heights that the only way to restore order will be a 1984-esque totalitarian government - rather ironically if it were to happen the very people who are most idealogically opposed to it will have had the biggest hand in creating it IMO.

If you don't want 1984 to happen, then in my view you HAVE to back a return to punishing criminals rather than trying to understand them or else things will just degenerate further and 1984 is exactly what you will get.

If there is anything at all positive to come out of this week, I really hope that this is the wake up call which our country's politicians and legal system needs that the time for understanding crime is over and they must move back to punishing it.

When David Cameron was talking tough today, I genuinely hope he means it and will bring in policies to deliver it. If it was just words which won't be followed by action, then quite frankly I'll just be counting down the days till 1984 happens.

The fact is that most people obey the law not for moral reasons, but because of the fear of consequences for getting caught (software piracy is a good example). By the same token most people agree with laws in principle. None of these people would like it if their property was stolen.

But I think most taking part have been 'drawn in' to it. Almost everyone has a threshold at which they would 'join in' in looting of some kind. After all if literally everyone was grabbing things from shop windows you'd feel pretty stupid paying £500 for something you, and everyone else, could get for free. For these people the threshold is just lower - it's a sort of critical mass thing.

The solution is to demonstrate that they can't 'get away' with it, and the way to do that is through the threat and application of indiscriminate and incapacitating force on those taking part - simple and cheap. In this respect those that are actually cuplable for many of the 'copycat riots' are those that tacitly support their activites through excuses or criticism of the police - they're the ones standing in the way of the action that needs to be taken.