Why is Census Question 17 Intentionally Left Blank?

[marksi]

Question 17 in Northern Ireland asks:

What religion, religious denomination or body do you belong to?
Roman Catholic
Presbyterian Church in Ireland
Church of Ireland
Methodist Church in Ireland
Other [write in]

Question 18 asks:
What religion, religious denomination or body were you brought up in?
...with the same options.

[Nick Harvey]

Advice - if you were me, what would you put? I can speak basic conversational Welsh, understand the basics of an S4C rugby commentary and read enough to get by a basic children's story. I could, and probably will, tick all of options 1-4, but that in no way equates me to a Welsh 1st-person speaker from up North.

Plus why isn't this question changed to Scottish Gaelic in Alba, or Gaelige in Tuaisceart Éireann? Plus what if I'm a Welsh ex-pat living 'cross the Dyke?

Very good points there.

Why shouldn't I be able to record the fact that I'm, probably, two thirds as fluent as you, yet live in England?

I think ALL the questions should be asked in ALL the countries.

And why not ask the language question in the language itself, with an additional option saying "What does this mean?", in English, at the bottom?

[B3 REV]

Plus why isn't this question changed to Scottish Gaelic in Alba, or Gaelige in Tuaisceart Éireann? Plus what if I'm a Welsh ex-pat living 'cross the Dyke?

What use would the question be for Welsh speakers in England? There's no laws here about the use of the Welsh language and neither will there ever be. That's what it's for, if it turned out that the Welsh speaking population in Wales had decreased spectacularly then there would be a reduction in the resources given to bi-lingual signs/publications/broadcasting etc

Completely agree. I am getting fed up of seeing all over the internet Welsh ex-pats whinging that the question about Welsh isn't asked here. And why in the name of hell should it be - this is our country thank you very much. Welsh is just as foreign here as Punjab and Urdu and should not be prioritised above them. I really don't understand why some people think the status of the Welsh language should extend beyond the border, especially with the way a lot of them treat us.

[Sput]

Of course, in a very real sense that's all untrue.

[Col]

In the NI version of the Census, the question on knowledge of Irish and Ulster-Scots is 21 on the form.

[Pete]

Question 17 in Northern Ireland asks:

What religion, religious denomination or body do you belong to?
Roman Catholic
Presbyterian Church in Ireland
Church of Ireland
Methodist Church in Ireland
Other [write in]

Question 18 asks:
What religion, religious denomination or body were you brought up in?
...with the same options.

So you are religious whether you want to be or not then? Did Rev Ian write that question himself?

[marksi]

Question 17 in Northern Ireland asks:

What religion, religious denomination or body do you belong to?
Roman Catholic
Presbyterian Church in Ireland
Church of Ireland
Methodist Church in Ireland
Other [write in]

Question 18 asks:
What religion, religious denomination or body were you brought up in?
...with the same options.

So you are religious whether you want to be or not then? Did Rev Ian write that question himself?

Apologies - there is also a [ ] None box under "Other".

21 Can you understand, speak, read or write Irish or Ulster Scots?

With options in each language for no ability, understand, speak, read and write.

In terms of understanding Ulster Scots, it's like someone in Manchester being asked if they can understand Geordie.
You can download the census in Ulster Scots.
http://help.census.gov.uk/assets/Ulster ... -11276.pdf

Here is one of the questions:
Whit is yer name?

[Alexia]

Plus why isn't this question changed to Scottish Gaelic in Alba, or Gaelige in Tuaisceart Éireann? Plus what if I'm a Welsh ex-pat living 'cross the Dyke?

What use would the question be for Welsh speakers in England? There's no laws here about the use of the Welsh language and neither will there ever be. That's what it's for, if it turned out that the Welsh speaking population in Wales had decreased spectacularly then there would be a reduction in the resources given to bi-lingual signs/publications/broadcasting etc

Completely agree. I am getting fed up of seeing all over the internet Welsh ex-pats whinging that the question about Welsh isn't asked here. And why in the name of hell should it be - this is our country thank you very much. Welsh is just as foreign here as Punjab and Urdu and should not be prioritised above them. I really don't understand why some people think the status of the Welsh language should extend beyond the border, especially with the way a lot of them treat us.

In response to Numberplate: Well actually Welsh, Cornish and their cousins come from the Brythonic languages which were spoken on these Isles many centuries before your country's quasi-German Latinesque Greek dialect of French arrived on these shores. Your suspicions of Punjabi and Urdu being given "priority" over English reeks of xenophobia. What's the matter - are you upset your local council is transcribing a couple of signs here and there? Are you bitter your local library has taken the time to order in a limited, small selection of Asian language books? Perhaps you could link to some of these places "all over the internet" that Welsh ex-pats are "whinging" - more likely they're just making the same innocent inquiry I am. Your last comments say more about your particular charming brand of English inferiority complex than it does about the Welsh sense of identity

Unusually, admittedly, for me, I wasn't asking my question from a political perspective, more from a purely statistical perspective. This questionnaire is supposed to ascertain a set of data pertaining to particular criteria, in this case, knowledge of Welsh. I am happy to learn, as has been proved in this thread, that the option is there for people living outside of Wales to disclose knowledge of the language. This pleases me. Whatever motives the government has for using the data, I do not care one jot for. As a librarian, I am acutely aware that in 100 years time, the answers we write so carelessly today will be the basis for education and sociological study. It is our responsibility to the future to make that basis as solid, wide ranging and accurate as possible, just as previous generations have strived to preserve their nuggets of history for us to stumble upon today.

Incidentally, for purposes of full disclosure, I have no wish for people outside of Wales to be forced to learn Welsh. In fact, my own shamefully limited knowledge of my own lingo puts me in much the same camp as my mono-glottal English friends who feel uneasy when surrounded by Welsh speakers. I have first hand experience of what I term Welsh Language Nazism from the Welsh Language tutors in work. Of course, in my head, I know that they are speaking Welsh to each other because it is their first, preferred language. Doesn't mean that occasionally I don't suspect they do it as a tool of ostracism or some kind of language elitism. I am very much in the pro-Welsh camp within the borders, in fact I am attempting to learn it (and Cornish, which is similar) at the moment.

I am a proud Welshman and I am proud of the fact we have one of the oldest living languages in existence. On a day such as today, when a whole island celebrates its cultural identity despite being brutally divided by religion and idealism, perhaps it is understandable the sense of importance us smaller nations place on our unique characteristics. If it winds people like B3 REV up, then, as they say in Germany, um so beßer.

[tvmercia]

What use would the question be for Welsh speakers in England? There's no laws here about the use of the Welsh language and neither will there ever be. That's what it's for, if it turned out that the Welsh speaking population in Wales had decreased spectacularly then there would be a reduction in the resources given to bi-lingual signs/publications/broadcasting etc

Completely agree. I am getting fed up of seeing all over the internet Welsh ex-pats whinging that the question about Welsh isn't asked here. And why in the name of hell should it be - this is our country thank you very much. Welsh is just as foreign here as Punjab and Urdu and should not be prioritised above them. I really don't understand why some people think the status of the Welsh language should extend beyond the border, especially with the way a lot of them treat us.

In response to Numberplate: Well actually Welsh, Cornish and their cousins come from the Brythonic languages which were spoken on these Isles many centuries before your country's quasi-German Latinesque Greek dialect of French arrived on these shores. Your suspicions of Punjabi and Urdu being given "priority" over English reeks of xenophobia. What's the matter - are you upset your local council is transcribing a couple of signs here and there? Are you bitter your local library has taken the time to order in a limited, small selection of Asian language books? Perhaps you could link to some of these places "all over the internet" that Welsh ex-pats are "whinging" - more likely they're just making the same innocent inquiry I am. Your last comments say more about your particular charming brand of English inferiority complex than it does about the Welsh sense of identity

Unusually, admittedly, for me, I wasn't asking my question from a political perspective, more from a purely statistical perspective. This questionnaire is supposed to ascertain a set of data pertaining to particular criteria, in this case, knowledge of Welsh. I am happy to learn, as has been proved in this thread, that the option is there for people living outside of Wales to disclose knowledge of the language. This pleases me. Whatever motives the government has for using the data, I do not care one jot for. As a librarian, I am acutely aware that in 100 years time, the answers we write so carelessly today will be the basis for education and sociological study. It is our responsibility to the future to make that basis as solid, wide ranging and accurate as possible, just as previous generations have strived to preserve their nuggets of history for us to stumble upon today.

Incidentally, for purposes of full disclosure, I have no wish for people outside of Wales to be forced to learn Welsh. In fact, my own shamefully limited knowledge of my own lingo puts me in much the same camp as my mono-glottal English friends who feel uneasy when surrounded by Welsh speakers. I have first hand experience of what I term Welsh Language Nazism from the Welsh Language tutors in work. Of course, in my head, I know that they are speaking Welsh to each other because it is their first, preferred language. Doesn't mean that occasionally I don't suspect they do it as a tool of ostracism or some kind of language elitism. I am very much in the pro-Welsh camp within the borders, in fact I am attempting to learn it (and Cornish, which is similar) at the moment.

I am a proud Welshman and I am proud of the fact we have one of the oldest living languages in existence. On a day such as today, when a whole island celebrates its cultural identity despite being brutally divided by religion and idealism, perhaps it is understandable the sense of importance us smaller nations place on our unique characteristics. If it winds people like B3 REV up, then, as they say in Germany, um so beßer.

its easy to pick apart B3's emotive ramble.

however, inspector's original response to you still stands. asking the population of england whether they speak welsh is has as much value as asking us what our favourite colour is. the government is charged with the task of producing a survey that is as concise and as relevant as possible.

[B3 REV]

In response to Numberplate: Well actually Welsh, Cornish and their cousins come from the Brythonic languages which were spoken on these Isles many centuries before your country's quasi-German Latinesque Greek dialect of French arrived on these shores. Your suspicions of Punjabi and Urdu being given "priority" over English reeks of xenophobia. What's the matter - are you upset your local council is transcribing a couple of signs here and there? Are you bitter your local library has taken the time to order in a limited, small selection of Asian language books? Perhaps you could link to some of these places "all over the internet" that Welsh ex-pats are "whinging" - more likely they're just making the same innocent inquiry I am. Your last comments say more about your particular charming brand of English inferiority complex than it does about the Welsh sense of identity

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. I never said Asian languages are given priority over English. I was talking about the idea of Welsh being prioritised over other foreign languages here in England. I have absolutely no issue with Asian languages whatsoever and I think the cultural diversity is a great thing about this country. There are about 150,000 Welsh speakers in England, which is much less than the number of speakers of other languages (can't remember exact figures, but definitely a lot more) and I was trying to say that just because England is still the UK, Welsh is just as foreign as Punjab, Urdu, Arabic etc and should not come above the rest, especially when there's more speakers the latter. Therefore, question 17 in England should not be a question wholly about Welsh. Any Welsh speaking ex-pats in England can state their first language in question 18.

As for these sites on the internet I was referring to, a quick google of 'question 17 blank in england' or something to that effect turns up dozens of comments asking why question 17 is not asked in England, and shouting 'racism' at the census organisers in England, which is just ridiculous.

[Gavin Scott]

Welsh is just as foreign as Punjab, Urdu, Arabic etc and should not come above the rest, especially when there's more speakers the latter.

There's a significant difference - Wales is a part of the Union - or a Principality of England if you prefer.

Despite the fact that more people may speak Chinese in England, for example, the Welsh language - from a heritage standpoint if nothing else - should be considered important by the UK government. If the UK and Welsh parliaments don't address their own heritage, who will?