The International Aid Budget

Chie
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WillPS wrote:
Chie wrote:Children are still being neglected and abused in the UK. £11.5bn would prevent and stop a lot of suffering. What are we going to tell them when they're older? Sorry, social services didn't help you because your government was busy keeping elephants away from Indian villages?
Okay Chie - what would you do with that £11.5bn to stop all that suffering?
I would start by employing hundreds more social workers, juggling 10 cases each instead of the current 30-odd.

I would also increase funding for foster care, which is currently underfunded by £580m per year. (Source)
Pete wrote:
Chie wrote:It recently came to my attention that our international aid is being used to protect rural Indian villages from stampeding elephants who are rather cross about the ever-increasing encroachment of their natural habitat.
That's an interesting quote, do you happen to have a source for that (not that I don't believe you I should aded, just curious)?
Ah. I made a mistake. It's a quango called The Darwin Initiative.

However: still public money, and India is not "poor in financial resources". India is richer than Germany yet Indians pay 92% less tax than Germans do. If they want protection from hostile wildlife they can start lobbying their government to increase the tax take and pay for it themselves.

Up until three months ago we were also giving international aid to Russia and China.
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Sput
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Gavin Scott wrote:I just don't know - and that's the truth.

My instinct is that we, and other G8 nations, should be helping seriously poor countries with aid and development. The caveat to that is that we should be crystal clear what financial aid is there to support, not just cutting a cheque and putting it in the hands of potentially unscrupulous types. Aid should be measurable in its deliverables, and not just nebulous goodwill.

0.7% of our domestic income sounds so little, but £11bn doesn't - especially when £80bn is what's being cut from our budgets.

There must be payback of sorts (tsk @ giving to receive :shock: ) in terms of exports from these countries, and the fact that those growing economies may have positive knock on for ours; but aside from that I'm confused why the tories see this is as something to fanfare given their massively over-egged cuts to our own economy.

What's your take on this Pete?
Personally (I are not pete) I don't think we're nearly as poor as we'd like to tell ourselves, and £11 billion is going to go a LOT further spread throughout the neediest parts of the world than it is here. As you say, we're still spending £700 billion on ourselves and the truth is that in a very real sense our quality of life will remain the envy of much of the world, even after cuts. Just perusing wikipedia I see that no single person seems to get more than about $100/year from international aid (not just our money), so I expect the definitions of poverty Chie is using are not comparable. International poverty looks like it's based on receiving less than a dollar a day and not expecting to see 40 years of age. Over here poverty is usually defined as the bottom x percent of incomes.

I also see the UN is pretty pragmatic about selecting who gets aid, requiring that the people do have to benefit, but that doesn't have to be the ONLY benefit (wink wink). The "aren't we all lovely" approach also has real benefits such as increasing stability, obliterating diseases (which might come to affect us if things keep warming up) and generally improving the environment.
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Sput
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I SUSPECT it's not the same creditors!
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Sput
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I wonder if this counts as international aid...
Beyond Anthrax 2009, 1-38, DOI: 10.1007/978-1-59745-326-4_2 wrote:In an attempt to decrease the risk of smallpox and other biological
weapons, the United States and European nations are reported to be devoting $90 million each year to assist Russia to employ approximately 6,000 former bioweapons scientists and to secure better its large bioweapons complex
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Chie
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It was, but it's not anymore. The government has canceled aid to China and Russia, who are the 3rd and 8th richest countries in the world respectively. They don't need $90 million from us.
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Sput
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No, but I think the point here is that WE need them to TAKE the $90 million and use it for this, which won't necessarily happen otherwise. It's a pretty open and shut case of our direct benefit from giving money to other countries, dontchathink?
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Chie
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Well this is what the UN is for. We ask the UN to tell Russia what to do and Russia does it. We shouldn't have to bribe them.
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Pete
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Chie wrote:Well this is what the UN is for. We ask the UN to tell Russia what to do and Russia does it. We shouldn't have to bribe them.
I bribed Tesco to give me some milk earlier.

tbh I'm not sure whether this counts as international aid given that its essentially investing in a project that has your own interests as its job.

Course Russia is also of the "rich but its people aren't" category that India is in which is why i find India such an unpleasant country. The concept of someone building a billion dollar home for themselves when people are staving in the same city is frankly disgusting.

But then it also highlights the difference between our country and theirs, and not in a "tsk @ the selfish rich" manner.

I was ranting and raving and kicked a chair the other day because I "ran out of money." Course I hadn't really. I had £4 in my current account due to various reasons but I by no means had run out of money, I have a thousand or so hidden away, my mother has thousands and I'm still in a house with water, electric, heating and all that guff.

If someone is "poor" in this country it is not the same as being poor elsewhere. Indeed "poverty" in Britain is measured on a moveable target of 60% of median income therefore the richer the rich get the more people are "poor."

I am therefore poor according to statistics (although despite being poor, I am not common which means I shall not be mocked by Harry Hill).

However this isn't the same as being poor in the sense of having less than $2 a day to live on, and this is what my general view of International aid boils down to.

In this country, if you are poor, and if the govt makes some cuts, you might have to buy slightly less posh things or cancel your Sky subscription. In other countries, if you are poor, you die by starving to death or drinking filthy rancid water. This does not happen in this country, least when it does it only happens to the odd person and its a very strange occurrence. In India its one in three of the population.

So I have no concerns whatsoever about spending a general pittance in terms of overall govt expenditure to attempt to make shit countries nicer. For all the good the European empires might have done it did a load of shite too, mainly to do with careless borders being drawn on paper without taking into account that there were infact people in the areas beforehand.

And while we're in it, many of those who moan on about int aid are those who moan on about immigration. If you make a country less crap to live in, people are less likely to leave and come to countries where they think they can do better.

For example, you'll recall a few years back we were "swamped" with Polish people. Our bus company employed a load of cheap Polish drivers as they thought they could get away with more. Except they've mostly left, why is this? Because since joining the EU there has been money flowing into Poland, and there are much better jobs and much better pay available in their own country. Why would they then live over here, away from their families and in a strange country when they can get decent enough pay back home?

Not that you'd know that of course, because newspapers such as the Daily Mail include ex-pats returning home as "evil immigrunts" to skew the stats [and I will find a link for this if you give me time]

Course if poor white folk weren't too good to pick berries in fields you wouldn't need to import people but then that's another issue altogether.

So yes this is more of an answer to Gav's page 1 question but never mind.
"He has to be larger than bacon"
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Gavin Scott
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Pete wrote:So yes this is more of an answer to Gav's page 1 question but never mind.
Hey I'm that guy. *waves*
Chie
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Pete wrote:tbh I'm not sure whether this counts as international aid given that its essentially investing in a project that has your own interests as its job.
Officially it's called international development. I can't find out which budget our contribution to the $90 million comes out of but the money is still public money and it sets a dangerous kind of precedent: next time we suggest a country does something they'll refuse to do it unless we hand over $90 million (or however much it costs).
Pete wrote:So I have no concerns whatsoever about spending a general pittance in terms of overall govt expenditure to attempt to make shit countries nicer.
The Indian government thinks 'yay! we can get on with our $2 billion space program now without having to worry about the poor because the UK's looking after them'. Do you recognise the problem there?
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Gavin Scott
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Chie wrote:The Indian government thinks 'yay! we can get on with our $2 billion space program now without having to worry about the poor because the UK's looking after them'. Do you recognise the problem there?
Would I be correct or incorrect to surmised your point to be, "they don't care if their people die, so why should we?"?
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