Are the Tories finished before they start?

[Gavin Scott]

Well yes but my point is that for someone who supposedly doesn't reflect the new progressive conservative party, he's certainly being allowed a lot of airtime. I'd have thought someone as media savvy as cameron would have kept him on a pretty short leash after the NHS comments.

Could it be that, as media savvy as Cameron clearly is, he recognises that the sniff of a familiar face is better than no face at all. I couldn't name the shadow cabinet at gunpoint.

This serves to reinforce my disquiet about media culture applied to political campaigning. Not a new thing by any means, but now its less reliant on "soundbites", and instead feeds into the apparent 10-second memory of today's citizen.

Its really quite insulting. Am I to look at this tosser and say, "Oh I know him. I remember his face - yeh I'll vote for them"? Is that how the masses think? Even if it is, doesn't that make them tossers by playing right into it - before the eyes of the upper-quartile who see what they're playing at?

That may be the media savvy button to push for mass recognition in this day and age, but it doesn't fill me with confidence about those behind it. It does the opposite.

Blair was the king of spin (complete with the works of Campbell and Mandleson, of course), but he had a definitive agenda. When the Sun backed him in 97, they relayed the crafted musings of the spin men, and laid it out for us to consider.

This time, in supporting the Tories, they lead with, "Brown has lost it".

Another sign of the times. Perhaps its more effective to say, "don't vote for the one you recognise - vote for the other one".

[marksi]

The UU will contest the election under the Ulster Conservatives and Unionists - New Force banner not Conservative, they will fight under the leadership of Sir Reg Empey not DC. Sir Reg Empey would be involved in any NI Debate.

But precisely the same arguments apply to NI as to Scotland and Wales - the Prime Minister elected will be the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[Chie]

There were some funny vox pops on the news the other day in response to the Tories' plan to *freeze* public sector pay for one year. The public sector aren't happy at all about this and there's even talk of strike action if the Tories should win :roll: One would think they'd be grateful for having a job at all right now, but it would appear not. To be honest, I won't have any sympathy for those people who are moaning about a simple pay freeze if it turns out they do end up having to be made redundant next year, if that's their attitude. It really is appalling.

There's also cries of 'why should we pay for the bankers mistakes' coming from the nouveau riche, which is frankly one of the silliest things I've heard in my life. I was all for letting the banks go to the wall and forcing them to give customers their money back (whilst obviously recovering any outstanding debts) but these are the same people who supported the bail out in the first place, and now they're saying they should be exempt from contributing towards decreasing the ridiculous national debt that we've been saddled with because of it. You can't say 'yes, I support the £700bn bail out - let's put it on the national credit card' and then complain when the bills start coming in a year later.

Where do they think the money is going to come from and what makes them think they're so special that they don't have to pay?? The public sector workers and nouveau riche of the Labour years benefited greatly from the boom, so it's only right that they accept their fair share of responsibility and suffer along with everyone else.

Elsewhere, there are refuse collectors striking in Leeds because they face a £5000 pay cut due to the council finally equalising wages for men and women. Five grand does sound like a lot and I was ready to sympathise with them, but I was literally gobsmacked when I heard they're currently on £18,000 pa. That's something like £10 per hour - for being a bin man! Craziness. Hopefully the council will tell them where to stick their strike.

[Sput]

Snob

[Chie]

For anyone who really thinks I'm being a snob, consider the fact that teachers start on £20k and they spend five years of their life training at university for it, too. It's not like you need much training to become a refuse collector. Also remember that most council tax payer's bins are only emptied once a fortnight now as well.

[Sput]

But didn't you say university was worthless?

[barcode]

. Also remember that most council tax payer's bins are only emptied once a fortnight now as well.

but where i live we have 3 bins to get emptied

[Gavin Scott]

For anyone who really thinks I'm being a snob, consider the fact that teachers start on £20k and they spend five years of their life training at university for it, too. It's not like you need much training to become a refuse collector. Also remember that most council tax payer's bins are only emptied once a fortnight now as well.

Teachers salaries may start low, but they escalate quite a lot. I have friends who teach who earn AT LEAST twice what a bin man makes.

If you think that 40 hours a week (plus unpaid overtime) of walking miles and lifting your stinky unmentionables into a truck spewing out diesel fumes in your face isn't worth £18,000 per annum, then I would think most people reading along think you are being a snob.

Your bin may only get emptied every second week now, but that doesn't mean they're in the pub when they're not at your house. They're emptying someone else's.

To put it in context Chie - here's a list of average salaries in Britain.

http://www.mysalary.co.uk/uk-salary-inflation-2009.php

So - binmen, despite the stinky foul stuff they do, are paid similar to an administrator in an office, or a sales assistant in a shop.

I think you're out of touch with how much jobs pay. I recommend you get one.

[Chie]

Good point.

[Gavin Scott]

Good point.

To your credit you took that extremely well.

The bin men wage cut up here is nearer to £6,000 per annum from an £18,000 wage. I spoke to a few of the chaps from Edinburgh Council and they're just beside themselves with worry about how they'll manage. If I took that kind of cut in pay I'd be finished. No way I could make my outgoings.

[barcode]

Good point.

To your credit you took that extremely well.

The bin men wage cut up here is nearer to £6,000 per annum from an £18,000 wage. I spoke to a few of the chaps from Edinburgh Council and they're just beside themselves with worry about how they'll manage. If I took that kind of cut in pay I'd be finished. No way I could make my outgoings.

Then there was talk of "privatization" which would never get the go ahead up here. there would be new riots,