Pres Cafe Watch News and Information Board

[MoeTheMan2025]

I know i accidentally linked to Tom's post, I apologise in advance.

[Blewatter]

My views on PC have overall been neutral to broadly supportive of them in the past. However, it does still feel that instead of listening to the concerns of the members, and former/inactive members, they have not attempted to compromise with the community. Things like Galleries and Request threads I get, and I've made my opinion on the former quite clear. However, I feel like the oversight of the PC admins, and their automated bot moderator are now really starting to grate, and actually discourage discussion.

There needs to be a better balance on moderation and letting discussions flow. By all means, stick to your guns on mocks and requests. But please have a look at rewriting the rules. There are things that I think are not necessary. There's 34 rules (well, 32, not counting superseded rules), and I do think you could easily consolidate that into a smaller set of guidelines. There are 3 separate rules on harrassment, insulting, and ad hoc attacks. And there's rules that have been superseded by other rules. It needs a clean up.

And please allow international users back on. They are a minority, but the french pres and international pres threads were killed because the website is now geoblocked to the UK and Ireland. They made some great contributions to past websites, and to PC as well.

Alas, unless another plucky person decides to go the route of starting a new forum, then there really isn't much we can do. PC Mods, who I know will likely see this (I've read rule 34, and this isn't an attack, just a well written critique), please consider what I hope is seen as constructive criticism:

1. I would look at and rewrite the rules. Just see if they can be rewritten, and if they can be simplified.
2. Bring back international users. They were active in the community, and I feel like the forum needed them.
3. Consider adding a locked announcement thread on your feedback page. I want to know what you guys are doing, and how you guys come to decisions. I feel it would be good for the community, and cause a lot less confusion and frustration.


(And no, I am not going to start a new forum. I saw what happened to Rob, I don't want that to affect my mental health, but if I did, I'd call it 'Pres Pub' and it would be green as a primary colour, because why not)

[1mbroglio]

My views on PC have overall been neutral to broadly supportive of them in the past. However, it does still feel that instead of listening to the concerns of the members, and former/inactive members, they have not attempted to compromise with the community. Things like Galleries and Request threads I get, and I've made my opinion on the former quite clear. However, I feel like the oversight of the PC admins, and their automated bot moderator are now really starting to grate, and actually discourage discussion.

There needs to be a better balance on moderation and letting discussions flow. By all means, stick to your guns on mocks and requests. But please have a look at rewriting the rules. There are things that I think are not necessary. There's 34 rules (well, 32, not counting superseded rules), and I do think you could easily consolidate that into a smaller set of guidelines. There are 3 separate rules on harrassment, insulting, and ad hoc attacks. And there's rules that have been superseded by other rules. It needs a clean up.

And please allow international users back on. They are a minority, but the french pres and international pres threads were killed because the website is now geoblocked to the UK and Ireland. They made some great contributions to past websites, and to PC as well.

Alas, unless another plucky person decides to go the route of starting a new forum, then there really isn't much we can do. PC Mods, who I know will likely see this (I've read rule 34, and this isn't an attack, just a well written critique), please consider what I hope is seen as constructive criticism:

1. I would look at and rewrite the rules. Just see if they can be rewritten, and if they can be simplified.
2. Bring back international users. They were active in the community, and I feel like the forum needed them.
3. Consider adding a locked announcement thread on your feedback page. I want to know what you guys are doing, and how you guys come to decisions. I feel it would be good for the community, and cause a lot less confusion and frustration.


(And no, I am not going to start a new forum. I saw what happened to Rob, I don't want that to affect my mental health, but if I did, I'd call it 'Pres Pub' and it would be green as a primary colour, because why not)

A well put together post with some great ideas but I fear it's a waste of time. I've looked around PC and they seem so stuck in their ways.

[MoeTheMan2025]

And if the sadministrator or soderator had courage, they'd actually do sensible things (no, this is not against Rule #34), such as:
1. Use sensible rules. Rule 20 was broken by JexedBack, but instead of being banned like genuinely innocent users, he just gets a thread closure. And BlueFrog is on there, but his youtube is banned. Just how does that make sense?
2. Bring back international users. The international block they've put upon its users is terrible. What are the technical and security reasons you are only allowing people of this country there?
3. Add a Mocks forum. I know it is against Rule 8, but that rule is absolutely the type of bullshit that could make it on Spitting Image if not careful. The "other outlets are available for these" statement, while true for Requests, is also not even close to true. r/logodesign is close enough, but there are no good logos there.
4. Kept the old design. The current design is very poor. That globe is as good as the shit ASO made on TV Forum, if it was any good it would have channel specific ones (like the one that appeared on ITVBe's last day). There was nowt wrong with the old design.
5. If the stupid soderators Cappuccino and Nescafé are named that, why not Admin PC as Barista?

[dosxuk]

And if the sadministrator or soderator had courage, they'd actually do sensible things (no, this is not against Rule #34), such as:
1. Use sensible rules. Rule 20 was broken by JexedBack, but instead of being banned like genuinely innocent users, he just gets a thread closure. And BlueFrog is on there, but his youtube is banned. Just how does that make sense?

Wait - so you want people to be banned rather than just having their posts removed? And you see this as a good thing?

2. Bring back international users. The international block they've put upon its users is terrible. What are the technical and security reasons you are only allowing people of this country there?

It's their forum, they can do as they like. However, I know of several fora that are struggling with intermittent DDOS attacks over the last few months - one route to reduce the impact of these is to reduce the amount of the internet that can access your site.

And while traffic to the international threads may have decreased, the rest of the forum doesn't appear to be overly affected by the lack of international opinions. As it is very much a UK focused site, with no pretence of being an international site, the admins may well be happy with a reduction in the international postings.

3. Add a Mocks forum. I know it is against Rule 8, but that rule is absolutely the type of bullshit that could make it on Spitting Image if not careful. The "other outlets are available for these" statement, while true for Requests, is also not even close to true. r/logodesign is close enough, but there are no good logos there.

They have said since day one that they don't want mocks of any type. It's not their responsibility to provide a space for mocking, and they're right - anyone can create a site these days to post their mocks. Frankly, the mock scene always was a bit of a cesspool, sure there was the odd piece of brilliance - but most of it was garbage posted by people who didn't want any criticism. I can totally understand why they don't want a part of it.

[Blewatter]

I agree. Like i said in my earlier reply, i don't think the rules are necessarily bad, just confusing and wordy, and repetitive. 34 rules is a slog to read, when you could very easily consolidate into half of that. And like I said, no mocks. Most mocks were made sloppily (including my own) and the talented people, like Patv, were a minority.

However, i do believe we should allow international users back. More transparency and a clearer set of rules. That's all PC needs

[JetixFann450]

I was initially just going to leave it there, in terms of my time with Pres Cafe, but since checking some of the responses here, it's made me want to at least respond to certain points people raise:

The rules are the rules, you have to live with them, the forum has a legacy it carry's on and thus has high standard that must be adhere to, sometimes we all forget that, its thanks to sticking to the rules which has helped keep the place going for so long.

This makes it sound more like the "legacy" of the past matters more than the community who is using the forum. Legacy isn't what keeps these sites alive, it's the people who use them. What worked maybe 10-20 years ago doesn't necessarily work well for a digital landscape that is skewing more younger and adapting to fluid communities. Prioritising the forum's "legacy" over evolving isn't moderation, it's gatekeeping. And gatekeeping isn't how you keep stable and thriving communities.

I remember in college a tutor just looking so defeated at how ‘lazy’ younger people were…

Whilst I can agree that younger people are becoming more lazier with things like CGPT basically puppeting them, the difference is that a lot of them are able to react to negativity and hostility disguised as a "standard". Comments like this reinforces the idea that PC isn't interested in helping new members, rather creating an "us vs. them" dynamic between the established and new blood.

i don't think the rules are necessarily bad, just confusing and wordy, and repetitive. 34 rules is a slog to read, when you could very easily consolidate into half of that.

I agree on this part completely. On modern platforms (such as Discord, which for many of us is the contemporary version of IRC), most communities are able to thrive just by a ruleset of only 10-15 well written rules, not labrinth-type lists that continue to become redundant and more confusing for new members. A healthy community is built upon the trust and open communication, not a manual of eggshells that can be used against community members when it is deemed convenient.

When rules are changed though, good moderators go forward with informing their community, not through a thread that can easily get buried in a subforum, but through clear notifications and announcements, potentially through email and push notifications. Transparency isn't weakness, it's good governance.

And please allow international users back on. They are a minority, but the french pres and international pres threads were killed because the website is now geoblocked to the UK and Ireland.

By geoblocking users, you're shutting out potential connections and growth outside of the UK. Members from across Europe and America bring their own perspectives to this hobby all of us share, and you're basically locking them out because you can't trust them to co-exist on a forum predominantly British. This just results in forums becoming actively sterile, and I'm very much aware there are things like OSA which have put certain internet forums behind walls, but this is no excuse to be quiet and sh-tum about these legislations. You don't trust your users if you can't explain it to them.

All of it can be summarised in this (paraphrased) subtext:

"If you don't like it, go somewhere else"

Okay, but where? As far as I'm aware, there's no other centralised hub for British TV presentation, and not one on the same scale as PC. Saying "go somewhere else" (again, paraphrased here) is a clear way to absorb yourself of any criticism rather than addressing how users can move on and go to better places deemed better fits for them. I have already mentioned places like Broadcast Plaza, and a few have even mentioned LocalNewsTalk, but these seem more for a news pres focus than general TV pres, whilst at the same time still being decent places to continue talking about pres without being iron fisted by a metaphorical wall.

"We won't add a Requests or Mocks subforum, there's other places for this type of content"

Okay, but where exactly? It's not enough to tell people to leave, and in fact some posters here haven't got the message there are better pathways to seek what they're looking for. Communities thrive when the communication points them in the right direction, not outwardly saying they should know better where to look. Hell, tell them to set up a Behance or look at other graphic designer portfolios (i.e: James Mobbs), as a graphic design student myself, that's advice I'd recommend most others who want to work in the TV presentation field should do. I'm well aware that Clean Feed was supposed to have a mock page but I've never seen this get developed beyond a mention here and there. Give us the right directions, not cast us out.

"We don't have a right to tell you anything: decisions are final"

Again, this is a simplified quote and does not exactly represent an actual Pres Cafe message, but this is generally what I've seen. That's not moderation, that's a wall. Walls eventually erode communities from the inside out.

All of these combined, they don't exactly help a forum grow, they help a forum stagnate and become even more sterile as the years go on. I'm probably going to leave what I say here and just shrug it off and move on, as Rob has suggested, since I can't really do anything but view the forum as if I was logged out, but I feel like you're doing a massive disservice, not just for younger posters like myself (I'm 21, if you're actually wondering), but actual industry professionals who have seen this from an outsiders view and do not have favourable opinions of the moderation decisions of this site.

Unless you actually do take on the criticisms of the posters here, the forum is better off ignored by aspiring graphic designers, industry professionals and passionate hobbyist TV fans.

TL;DR: I responded to some of the criticisms posters have made in this thread, and it's mostly just retrudging on previous ground that other posters have somewhat acknowledged, but I've tried to be honest and truthful to how to point towards the right direction. Mainly just better written rules, the criticisms of "if you don't like it, move on." and the nature of internet forums trying to maintain legacy.

[james2001]

(I've read rule 34, and this isn't an attack, just a well written critique)

I thought you were talking about the general internet "rule 34" for a minute 😱

[MoeTheMan2025]

I agree. Like i said in my earlier reply, i don't think the rules are necessarily bad, just confusing and wordy, and repetitive. 34 rules is a slog to read, when you could very easily consolidate into half of that. And like I said, no mocks. Most mocks were made sloppily (including my own) and the talented people, like Patv, were a minority.

However, i do believe we should allow international users back. More transparency and a clearer set of rules. That's all PC needs

But really, is there any actually good site with concept art?

[MoeTheMan2025]

"We won't add a Requests or Mocks subforum, there's other places for this type of content"

Okay, but where exactly? It's not enough to tell people to leave, and in fact some posters here haven't got the message there are better pathways to seek what they're looking for. Communities thrive when the communication points them in the right direction, not outwardly saying they should know better where to look. Hell, tell them to set up a Behance or look at other graphic designer portfolios (i.e: James Mobbs), as a graphic design student myself, that's advice I'd recommend most others who want to work in the TV presentation field should do. I'm well aware that Clean Feed was supposed to have a mock page but I've never seen this get developed beyond a mention here and there. Give us the right directions, not cast us out.

Valid. Don't let anyone say otherwise. I'd like to crown JetixFann450 the winner of this argument. Or maybe that forums stupidity is out of my league.

[barcode]

What a load of sour grapes...