The BIG MetroPoll - IN or OUT ?

Are you IN or OUT ?

Total votes: 44
Square Eyes
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri 15 Aug, 2003 13.38

Doesn't seem right we are not debating this here. So how is Metropol voting on June 23rd - IN or OUT of the EU ?

Dr Lobster*
Posts: 2037
Joined: Sat 30 Aug, 2003 20.14

A big fat IN from me.
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun 28 Mar, 2010 12.39
Location: Sheffield

I find the scaremongering and bickering from both campaigns in the media very frustrating - it was bound to happen but I would like some actual well reasoned facts from both sides to help me decide, not controversial statements and claims, overinflated statistics and all the other rubbish that we have.

My gut instinct though is to stay in - the EU is not perfect, but I think we're better in it (and trying to make it better) rather than making our way into the unknown.
bilky asko
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat 08 Nov, 2008 19.48

Out, for various reasons.

1. The European courts and EU law (to an extent). The former overreaches its power far too often, and sits above what is supposed to be our Supreme Court despite its dubious manner of interpretation.

Because EU law and regulations have to be intepreted, they add a layer of confusion that mean the EU is always having to correct the laws. More layers, less clarity.

2. EU standardisation undermining national standards. The change to pilots' hours to the detriment of UK pilots sticks in my mind - reducing safety to pander to countries resisting the change. The arbitrary appliance standards that mean filament bulbs disappear but constantly blowing halogen bulbs stay, for example, or the vacuum cleaner standards that are 2 decades behind technological advances in the field and are largely meaningless.

3. Lack of accountability. A disparate electorate (for what little of the EU is elected) and an uncomfortable (figurative) distance from the electorate meaning that a load of bollocks is often left unquestioned.

4. Inherent discrimination against those outside the EU. Though it's not represented by the UK anti-EU movement much, why should a genius scientist from India or China be lesser than any old geezer from France or Poland, in terms of entry? Leaving the EU would allow the opportunity to have a far more merit based immigration system, or a system that allows more immigration than current levels, or an immediate stop to movement should there be a disease outbreak, or whatever. Of course, the idea that being anti-immigrant is somehow inherently right-wing is a stupid one - corporations benefit hugely from immigration. I am resolutely not anti-migrant and I can see how leaving the EU could be a boon to immigration.

Those are the 4 biggest reasons I can think of at the moment.
Posts: 1190
Joined: Fri 15 Aug, 2003 17.28

Neither - I don't want to leave but I don't want to stay in what we're in. Honestly don't have a clue how to vote on this.

Both camps are making ridiculous statements - Boris drawing parallels with Hitler was an insane thing to say, but equally was Cameron more or less stating that a war in Western Europe couldn't be ruled out if we leave.

Perhaps the biggest problem with this referendum is the same one that existed with the Scottish referendum - the leave campaign can only be fought on idealism in the absence of hard facts of what a post-Brexit UK would look like, whilst the remain campaign equally can be fought only on a 'better the devil you know' basis.

Personally I think something of this magnitude needs a two stage process - an initial referendum to vote on the concept of leaving, to gauge public opinion on what people think. If at that point the vote was 'stay', that's the end of the process, if it is 'leave' then the government becomes duty bound to respect that vote and needs to enter into a period of preliminary negotiation culminating in agreements in principal; this is where the possibility of a US trade agreement (and indeed an EU trade agreement) could be negotiated to a preliminary stage, this is how we work out how we could re-instate functions we have since given over to Europe. It would also give the EU time to consider whether or not they could make any further concessions to keep us in given that leaving was the prevailing view of the majority of the public. This would all culminate in a final referendum several years later where people will vote again on whether or not to actually go through with it and leave, this time being in the possession of knowledge of what either option would mean.

That is of course a pipe dream, but without something like this in place it's just the Scottish referendum all over again - a choice between the status quo or an entirely unknown future, the details of which will only be worked out after voting to do it.
Martin Phillp
Posts: 1123
Joined: Wed 11 May, 2011 01.28

Both campaigns have been bloody awful with one clanger after another from the so called figureheads.

However, I'll be voting in as I believe despite the money we spend into the EU, your average person gets more out of it than they realise. The issue being that if you live in a rural part of the country, you may not see the benefits of the country unless you receive some form of EU subsidy, where as if you live in London, you're more likely to be a Europhobe who can see the advantages.

Take away the exaggerated immigration nonsense and I doubt so many people would vote out.
TVF's London Lite.
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed 29 Aug, 2007 19.36

cwathen wrote:Neither - I don't want to leave but I don't want to stay in what we're in. Honestly don't have a clue how to vote on this.
This is my view point aswell. I hate the EU, its not good enough and its pretty clear most of the fat cats sitting in those buildings want to.

Whats worse is, the only people out on my local street for the "IN" group is Greens and Lib dems and in both case there claim but TTIP wont happen and there have partners from the EU, and are unsure what will happen to them if UK votes out. ( Scottish Labour wont touch this since there cant get to into anymore trouble, the Scots Tories have just won people back and can't also people. )

SNP? A load of hypocrites.. what the difference between the UK and EU? Share laws, trade, free movement; Jim may have gotten it right on this one.

I would stay in the EU if it was reformed which isn't going to happen any time soon....

How much of this film is correct?
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2013 14.53

Out. They don't want us there anyway.

Can I just say that Cameron's campaign as been disgusting? Pure desperation.
Posts: 2977
Joined: Sat 01 Oct, 2005 17.50

In, for various reasons.

1) The funding from the EU for places in Wales, Cornwall and further afield that need it is invaluable, and literally supports hundreds of thousands of jobs. I don't trust any UK administration, of either political colour, to do the same. Post Brexit the politicos will just rape the rest of the country and fund all the money into the south east.

2) I have a Swedish sister-in-law who wouldn't be here if it wasn't for easy movement of peoples across borders. I have Spanish, Italian and Portuguese co-workers. My other half is part Irish. We are not meant to be isolationist as a people, despite our island nature. We are meant to be cosmopolitan.

3) I'm naturally opposed to anything that unites people like Boris, Farage, Galloway, Hoey and Rob Schneider on the same team. Basically this country has given in to a bunch of bigoted protofascists in UKIP. After seeing off the British Fascists, the National Front, the BNP, the EDL etc, we are now allowing a bunch of petulant whinging white middle class xenophobes to dictate our political agenda. Fuck all these arguments about economics, sovereignty etc, the main crux supporting the Brexit argument is "waah I don't like foreigners". Everything on top is just convenient window dressing for a very ugly fact. Give UKIP and their policy legitimacy by voting for Brexit, and soon this country, already battered into division and bitterness by our shower of shite politicians, will start itself on a slippery path towards even uglier policies like forced repatriation and American-style jingoism and "patriotism." Fuck THAT for a laugh.

We have a single, simple chance to shut Farage up for good, and he will slink back to the shadows where he belongs. The EU isn't perfect, but the alternative is worse.

I agree with Tim Smit.
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2013 14.53

You might not agree with me but I'm taking my country back. You can warn me, you can ban me, you can come round my house and beat me for all I care if you disagree so passionately with my point of view that you feel the need to do that. I want Boris running the UK. I want Donald running the States. I want us out of an organisation Europe clearly doesn't want us in in the first place. If those opinions classify me under "racist" in your eyes, then I'm afraid I have to admit that I'm a very proud racist. I don't believe I'm a racist, I believe I'm protecting British interests. You and all the other liberal lefties would of course prefer to use the "racist" tag though, I'm sure.

The ironic thing is that you don't even know if I'm white or otherwise.

"When one resorts to personal insults, it is because they have not a single political argument left." -- Margaret Thatcher.
bilky asko
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat 08 Nov, 2008 19.48

robschneider wrote:"When one resorts to personal insults, it is because they have not a single political argument left." -- Margaret Thatcher.
Is that why you called 9 people on TVF retards?
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