Europe - in or out?

Peter Crossley
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon 13 Oct, 2014 21.36
Location: Birmingham UK

AJ wrote:Having been brought up in one of the most economically deprived areas of the EU, I've seen first hand the benefits that EU membership brings - access to the EU Social Fund, Objective 1 and the ERDF being some of the most important grants that Wales benefits from - with a further £2bn being pumped in between now and 2020.

It's for that reason that my vote will be for us to stay in Europe, because this kind of funding would simply never come from Westminster.
That kind of funding could come from Westminster. The EU takes money out of taxpayers pockets and gives it back in the form of EU Social Fund bribes. How would AJ like it if the EU took a £5 note out of his pocket and gave him back £2.50p , well that how the EU works.
By the way I'm very pleased that most Greek voters voted Oxi in the bailout referendum http://www.theguardian.com/business/jul ... varoufakis
Mario Draghi the chief of the European Central Bank has said "For the euro to succeed anywhere it has to succeed everywhere"
Well the EU and the euro haven't been good for Greece.
cwathen
Posts: 1168
Joined: Fri 15 Aug, 2003 17.28

I don't see how anyone can make an objective decision at this stage. With the Scottish referendum, the electorate was being asked 'Should Scotland be an Independent Country?' but with no idea of what that actually would mean. Essentially, they had to vote for independence first, then the details of what an independent Scotland would look like would be worked out later. No wonder then that it wasn't voted for - a yes vote would be a vote for the unknown.

Given my political views, an 'out' vote would be the direction I naturally lean towards. Despite that I'm not averse to being in Europe, I'm just against the Europe we are in and I hope renegotiation will deliver a Europe that I want to be in. But if a referendum was held tomorrow, I'd have to either abstain from voting or vote 'in' as a safety choice rather than a backing of the status quo, as I've no idea what 'out' would actually mean when none of the detail about how we would exist outside of Europe after more than 40 years within it has been worked out yet.

IMO, an awful lot more about the consequences of each choice (including what Cameron manages to deliver in terms of renegotiation) has to be put on the table before strong arguments in favour of either direction can carry much weight.
Alexia
Posts: 2975
Joined: Sat 01 Oct, 2005 17.50

Peter Crossley wrote:The EU takes money out of taxpayers pockets and gives it back in the form of EU Social Fund bribes. How would AJ like it if the EU took a £5 note out of his pocket and gave him back £2.50p , well that how the EU works.
That's just taxation, you moron. I give the Chancellor a chunk of my salary, and then he decides how to spend it. I get the benefit of some of it (public services) and the rest goes to fund other stuff. I may not agree with what it's spent on - defence for example - but that's how taxation works. I can't moan about it because we have a supposedly democratically elected government who we designate to run the country ON OUR BEHALF. Once that money leaves my pay packet, I have NO right to say what it is or isn't spent on in the short term. I can campaign, demonstrate, whinge, moan and try and elect a better bunch of crooks to allocate the money SLIGHTLY differently at election time if I want, but this whole UKIPpy idea of "taking back" what's "rightfully ours" is pure uneducated bollocks.
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dosxuk
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu 07 Feb, 2008 21.37
Location: Sheffield

cwathen wrote:I've no idea what 'out' would actually mean when none of the detail about how we would exist outside of Europe after more than 40 years within it has been worked out yet.
A world of rainbows, unicorns, endless summer sunny evenings, and no dirty-im'grants hangin' round down t' corner.

Allegedly.
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WillPS
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue 22 Apr, 2008 18.32
Location: Carlton
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Alexia wrote:
Peter Crossley wrote:The EU takes money out of taxpayers pockets and gives it back in the form of EU Social Fund bribes. How would AJ like it if the EU took a £5 note out of his pocket and gave him back £2.50p , well that how the EU works.
That's just taxation, you moron. I give the Chancellor a chunk of my salary, and then he decides how to spend it. I get the benefit of some of it (public services) and the rest goes to fund other stuff. I may not agree with what it's spent on - defence for example - but that's how taxation works. I can't moan about it because we have a supposedly democratically elected government who we designate to run the country ON OUR BEHALF. Once that money leaves my pay packet, I have NO right to say what it is or isn't spent on in the short term. I can campaign, demonstrate, whinge, moan and try and elect a better bunch of crooks to allocate the money SLIGHTLY differently at election time if I want, but this whole UKIPpy idea of "taking back" what's "rightfully ours" is pure uneducated bollocks.
*claps*

Agreed. And I have far more trust in the EU to sort that shit out fairly than the bloody Tories.
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bilky asko
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sat 08 Nov, 2008 19.48

WillPS wrote:
Alexia wrote:
Peter Crossley wrote:The EU takes money out of taxpayers pockets and gives it back in the form of EU Social Fund bribes. How would AJ like it if the EU took a £5 note out of his pocket and gave him back £2.50p , well that how the EU works.
That's just taxation, you moron. I give the Chancellor a chunk of my salary, and then he decides how to spend it. I get the benefit of some of it (public services) and the rest goes to fund other stuff. I may not agree with what it's spent on - defence for example - but that's how taxation works. I can't moan about it because we have a supposedly democratically elected government who we designate to run the country ON OUR BEHALF. Once that money leaves my pay packet, I have NO right to say what it is or isn't spent on in the short term. I can campaign, demonstrate, whinge, moan and try and elect a better bunch of crooks to allocate the money SLIGHTLY differently at election time if I want, but this whole UKIPpy idea of "taking back" what's "rightfully ours" is pure uneducated bollocks.
*claps*

Agreed. And I have far more trust in the EU to sort that shit out fairly than the bloody Tories.
It is indeed taxation, but a lot more ham-fisted because richer countries benefit a lot less from it than if they allocated the money themselves. There is around €5,000,000,000 difference between our contribution and what we get back. The EU justifies this by saying that we have access to EU trade.
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WillPS
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bilky asko wrote: It is indeed taxation, but a lot more ham-fisted because richer countries benefit a lot less from it than if they allocated the money themselves. There is around €5,000,000,000 difference between our contribution and what we get back. The EU justifies this by saying that we have access to EU trade.
So your presumption is that the net benefit of freedom of trade with the EU is 0?
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bilky asko
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sat 08 Nov, 2008 19.48

WillPS wrote:
bilky asko wrote: It is indeed taxation, but a lot more ham-fisted because richer countries benefit a lot less from it than if they allocated the money themselves. There is around €5,000,000,000 difference between our contribution and what we get back. The EU justifies this by saying that we have access to EU trade.
So your presumption is that the net benefit of freedom of trade with the EU is 0?
Of course not, I explicitly stated that the EU say that trade deals make up for it. However, that's entirely dependent on the assumption that these would not be possible outside the EU.
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Alexia
Posts: 2975
Joined: Sat 01 Oct, 2005 17.50

Its what civilised countriea do. We raped the world of its resources, profited from it, and now we can give some back. We're not a poor country, far from it. People live in relative poverty, but thanks to our philanthropic ways we share surpluses. That's what decent people do. Tories and UKIP and some Labourites want to take that away. That's why they are evil shiteating subhuman bastards of the lowest order.
Peter Crossley
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon 13 Oct, 2014 21.36
Location: Birmingham UK

Alexia wrote:
Peter Crossley wrote:The EU takes money out of taxpayers pockets and gives it back in the form of EU Social Fund bribes. How would AJ like it if the EU took a £5 note out of his pocket and gave him back £2.50p , well that how the EU works.
That's just taxation, you moron. I give the Chancellor a chunk of my salary, and then he decides how to spend it. I get the benefit of some of it (public services) and the rest goes to fund other stuff. I may not agree with what it's spent on - defence for example - but that's how taxation works. I can't moan about it because we have a supposedly democratically elected government who we designate to run the country ON OUR BEHALF. Once that money leaves my pay packet, I have NO right to say what it is or isn't spent on in the short term. I can campaign, demonstrate, whinge, moan and try and elect a better bunch of crooks to allocate the money SLIGHTLY differently at election time if I want, but this whole UKIPpy idea of "taking back" what's "rightfully ours" is pure uneducated bollocks.
Your use of swearwords doesn't say anything about me as a person, but it says a lot about your inabilty to debate sensibly.
bilky asko
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sat 08 Nov, 2008 19.48

Alexia wrote:Its what civilised countriea do. We raped the world of its resources, profited from it, and now we can give some back. We're not a poor country, far from it. People live in relative poverty, but thanks to our philanthropic ways we share surpluses. That's what decent people do. Tories and UKIP and some Labourites want to take that away. That's why they are evil shiteating subhuman bastards of the lowest order.
Leaving the EU doesn't preclude investment into international aid and development. You're not seriously suggesting that the entire €5,000,000,000 deficit goes on such projects, are you?
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