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Martin Phillp
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed 11 May, 2011 01.28

Where Labour IMHO have got it wrong is that there's been too much infighting since 2015, the left had power until Starmer was elected which has skewed it more to the centre of their party.

The main issue is that potential voters are more likely to know about the hard left trying to bring back their Supreme Leader over working with the current centrist administration about where Labour should be heading. They have no direction and while Starmer is good at PMQs, he hasn't really resolved the anti-semitism issues they've had which were exacerbated under Corbyn and curbed those who supported Corbyn's 1970s socialist agenda.
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GhostFromTVF
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Joined: Sat 13 Jun, 2020 18.28
Location: North East England
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gottago wrote: Thu 03 Jun, 2021 20.26
all new Phil wrote: Thu 03 Jun, 2021 19.48
robschneider wrote: Thu 03 Jun, 2021 19.36

The working class have abandoned Labour in significant numbers though.
I’d say it’s more the case that Labour have abandoned the working class. Hence the Tories doing so well in former Labour strongholds.
But beyond pissing off Brexit voters how have they abandoned the working class? What have they actively done (or not done) to be accused of this? This is a genuine question by the way, I keep seeing this being said but don't really understand what's changed policy wise to be seen as being the case.

IMO I don't think socialism or Labour's traditional values are necessarily as important to the working class as they might have been, particularly given the decline in the influence of unions over the decades. Rather than Labour abandoning the working class it could well be the working class abandoning Labour. The Conservative Party has certainly changed into more of a nationalist party which has clearly appealed to a lot of working class voters, and now many die-hard Labour supporters have broken the seal and voted Tory there's not really any great reason why they wouldn't again if they like these nationalist policies. There does seem to be a trend for nationalism in a lot of European countries at the moment. I don't think we'll see another Labour government for many, many years.

Appreciate this is massively off topic for this thread!
I do think they abandoned the working class to a degree during the New Labour era, when they focused more on the middle class and immigrants. They started shifting back somewhat when Miliband took over, and more so with Corbyn.
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Jamesypoo
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On the forum front, I was pleased to see the announcement today of some changes Rob intends to make to the place. I was quite taken aback when he said in the BBC World thread “this is my forum, I have to read everyone’s posts”.

If it was a fairly small, quiet site then maybe yes. But on a forum with almost 1,000 users and over 16,000 posts already that just can’t be sustainable long term. I think I’d need a mod team just to keep track of Brekkie and JM’s level of posting let alone everyone else’s too.
robschneider
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2013 14.53

GhostFromTVF wrote: Thu 03 Jun, 2021 20.54
gottago wrote: Thu 03 Jun, 2021 20.26
all new Phil wrote: Thu 03 Jun, 2021 19.48

I’d say it’s more the case that Labour have abandoned the working class. Hence the Tories doing so well in former Labour strongholds.
But beyond pissing off Brexit voters how have they abandoned the working class? What have they actively done (or not done) to be accused of this? This is a genuine question by the way, I keep seeing this being said but don't really understand what's changed policy wise to be seen as being the case.

IMO I don't think socialism or Labour's traditional values are necessarily as important to the working class as they might have been, particularly given the decline in the influence of unions over the decades. Rather than Labour abandoning the working class it could well be the working class abandoning Labour. The Conservative Party has certainly changed into more of a nationalist party which has clearly appealed to a lot of working class voters, and now many die-hard Labour supporters have broken the seal and voted Tory there's not really any great reason why they wouldn't again if they like these nationalist policies. There does seem to be a trend for nationalism in a lot of European countries at the moment. I don't think we'll see another Labour government for many, many years.

Appreciate this is massively off topic for this thread!
I do think they abandoned the working class to a degree during the New Labour era, when they focused more on the middle class and immigrants. They started shifting back somewhat when Miliband took over, and more so with Corbyn.
The immigrants kept them in power. Invite 'em over, subsidise their lifestyle, who else are they going to vote for? Helped get Labour a third term in the short run (they must have expected a caning over Iraq) but in the long run I think the tide turned and it sowed the seeds of today's issues. I think in particular during the 2009 jobs crisis there was a feeling of "they took our jobs" - I'm not saying that happened, but perfectly well skilled people couldn't get arrested whilst immigrants seemed to be alright Jack. I genuinely think that came back to bite in 2016.
Martin Phillp
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed 11 May, 2011 01.28

robschneider wrote: Fri 04 Jun, 2021 00.39
GhostFromTVF wrote: Thu 03 Jun, 2021 20.54
gottago wrote: Thu 03 Jun, 2021 20.26

But beyond pissing off Brexit voters how have they abandoned the working class? What have they actively done (or not done) to be accused of this? This is a genuine question by the way, I keep seeing this being said but don't really understand what's changed policy wise to be seen as being the case.

IMO I don't think socialism or Labour's traditional values are necessarily as important to the working class as they might have been, particularly given the decline in the influence of unions over the decades. Rather than Labour abandoning the working class it could well be the working class abandoning Labour. The Conservative Party has certainly changed into more of a nationalist party which has clearly appealed to a lot of working class voters, and now many die-hard Labour supporters have broken the seal and voted Tory there's not really any great reason why they wouldn't again if they like these nationalist policies. There does seem to be a trend for nationalism in a lot of European countries at the moment. I don't think we'll see another Labour government for many, many years.

Appreciate this is massively off topic for this thread!
I do think they abandoned the working class to a degree during the New Labour era, when they focused more on the middle class and immigrants. They started shifting back somewhat when Miliband took over, and more so with Corbyn.
The immigrants kept them in power. Invite 'em over, subsidise their lifestyle, who else are they going to vote for? Helped get Labour a third term in the short run (they must have expected a caning over Iraq) but in the long run I think the tide turned and it sowed the seeds of today's issues. I think in particular during the 2009 jobs crisis there was a feeling of "they took our jobs" - I'm not saying that happened, but perfectly well skilled people couldn't get arrested whilst immigrants seemed to be alright Jack. I genuinely think that came back to bite in 2016.
How do immigrants vote in general elections when as far as I know, they're not allowed to? Some people without UK citizenship can vote in local elections however.

Labour won three terms because they went for the Tory vote while maintaining their Hampstead champagne socialist set and left-wingers happy, although the hard left hated Blair. That all went to pot after the financial crisis of 2007-08 which led to the coalition government of 2010-15 of Tories and Lib Dems.
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robschneider
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2013 14.53

A lot of them got residency so would have had the right to vote.
Joe
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Joined: Wed 31 Mar, 2021 20.15

Blimey. I’m sorry I brought it up.
robschneider
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed 14 Aug, 2013 14.53

Busiest this place has been for weeks lol
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Sput
Posts: 7491
Joined: Wed 20 Aug, 2003 19.57

robschneider wrote: Fri 04 Jun, 2021 01.44 Busiest this place has been for weeks lol
And yet also the shittest
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allwillbewell
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue 06 Apr, 2021 09.02

My friend from the EU who arrived before 31 dec said he cannot vote in general elections until he gets his British citizenship after five years.

As someone who is working class at least I was born into a working class family, almost everything that comes out of Labour's mouth is seen as toxic to us. They really don't have a clue what people want. That's mainly because the party is run from London. Plus there is still a struggle between which direction the party wants to go, and it doesn't seem to have the guts to cut one side off. You either appear to new generations or you try to keep the old ones, you cannot do both, and Labour will not win until it decides which way to go. But it is going to have to accept losing a chunk of voters and trying to win others. And it would be good if they had a leader that stood for something. But you have to remember as well that the last three elections had Brexit impact. The 2015 one, DC was offering the referendum, the 2017 one, Labour and the Tories offered two visions of Brexit, with many not really trusting Labour and in 2019 the Tories were the only one offering it. In 2024 it will be almost Brexit free and the Tories won't have that card. All Labour have to do is start working properly and get rid of London controllers.

Some people on the new place are starting to turn, nothing to do with me who is thrown out but I think bans will have to be issued soon before it gets out of hand.
allwillbewell
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue 06 Apr, 2021 09.02

Jamesypoo wrote: Thu 03 Jun, 2021 23.38 On the forum front, I was pleased to see the announcement today of some changes Rob intends to make to the place. I was quite taken aback when he said in the BBC World thread “this is my forum, I have to read everyone’s posts”.

If it was a fairly small, quiet site then maybe yes. But on a forum with almost 1,000 users and over 16,000 posts already that just can’t be sustainable long term. I think I’d need a mod team just to keep track of Brekkie and JM’s level of posting let alone everyone else’s too.
I thought there was a mod team? I saw a couple of mods.
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