Brexit

What's next?

Theresa May's Deal
8
18%
No deal
12
27%
People's vote
22
49%
Something else (pls specify)
3
7%
 
Total votes: 45
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Nick Harvey
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Pete wrote: Out of curiosity, aside from your alignment on Brexit, do you feel Mogg is a credible politician?
Far more credible than many give him credit for, but certainly not the best of the bunch.
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Pete
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all new Phil wrote: Wed 21 Nov, 2018 22.43 That we should remain in the EU to keep 16 people in a job?
*gives your leg a sharp kick under the desk*
"He has to be larger than bacon"
barcode
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Alexia wrote: Thu 22 Nov, 2018 01.51
barcode wrote: Wed 21 Nov, 2018 23.29 See there the problem... Blame the voters not the causes or issues, and you wonder why there is so much blood over this topic...

FYI every one is given a second language to do fo over 30 years nows.. Mind you maybe it would help if their let the kids decide second one should be instead of telling the kids what to learn..
The voters *are* to blame. They're the ones who allowed Farage and Galloway and Hoey and BoJo and Gove to exacerbate their worst fears, play their prejudices like a violin and who believed everything that confirmed their biases at face value without doing any research. Earlier you asserted that people voted to leave the EU because they felt they weren't getting any benefit from being in the EU. Yet these are the same deferential folk who gain absolutely no benefit from there being a royal family yet are firmly royalist. They're the same people who think that there should be a death penalty yet scream blue murder when anyone dares threaten their "yuman rites". A large tranche of the voters are just plain and wilfuly ignorant of how society at large affects them.

Also, if being in the EU really doesn't effect them, then why do they get any say on the matter? I don't drive, so I don't go around telling people what tyres they should have on their cars or what air freshener they use.

Finally about the languages issue - there is choice - I had a choice of Welsh, French, German, Spanish or Latin at GCSE. Of course, it would be good if some of the native population could master English first but we can't have everything.
This is why this has gotten so toxic, its rather poor reply from you. Its because everyone has pre-conceptions and there 100% right even if there totally wrong. It's why the decomcate will not win in 2020 and trump will stay put.

What about the Scottish nat or the indep people that want out of both EU and UK? Their doing this because of any of the points you raised?

I'm a firm royalist, because I dont want a president and I know we get at least 70% of the profits from the crown estates, other 30% goes to them...
Philip
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I think we can all agree that David Cameron is a dick though.
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barcode
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Philip wrote: Thu 22 Nov, 2018 17.36 I think we can all agree that David Cameron is a dick though.
That FAR TOO Nice of a comment for him and his twat of a friend George, those two are the worst people ever.. at least MRS T and Mr Major had convictions.
barcode
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Im no right winger but there clearly did. Poll tax was one of them,
cwathen
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Philip wrote: Thu 22 Nov, 2018 17.36 I think we can all agree that David Cameron is a dick though.
At this point, yes. A huge dick. I always championed Cameron from the time he became leader in 2005. He did feel like the breath of fresh air needed, a younger and more dynamic man who hadn't been an MP under any previous Tory administration and the first credible leader the Tories had post-1997 who looked like he could give Tony Blair a run for his money. I was convinced from his first performance at PMQs as leader of the opposition that this was the next Prime Minister (well, after Gordon Brown anyway) and I was right.

Once Blair had gone he blew Gordon Brown out of the water and it was no surprise to see him become Prime Minister in 2010. I was very happy with his performance during the coalition government and was delighted to see a majority Tory government returned in 2015...and then the excrement hit the air conditioning unit as that majority led to the Brexit referendum.

Brexit in Cameron's eyes was never about truly asking the people whether or not they wanted to be in Europe. It was simply a way of silencing the Euro-sceptics in his party. Europe had been tearing the tories apart at least since Maastricht (and arguably long before that). He wanted to be the man that unified the party, and his methodology was simply to pull the rug out from the Euro-sceptics and deny them a platform. It was to be his legacy.

There was of course an assumption that we would never actually vote to leave which is what Cameron gambled on. I do think it's unfair to label that an arrogant assumption of Cameron's, as it was assumed pretty much universally amongst all sides. Just as the Brexit results coverage started, one of the earliest interviews was with Nigel Farage, who was already conceding defeat, predicting that 'remain probably have just squeaked it'. I think the result was as much a shock to him as everyone else.

The EU themselves failed to seriously negotiate for change with Cameron in the belief that we wouldn't vote to leave. I do think in all of this they are being let off rather lightly through their failure to define what their goal is, to define when Europe will be 'done'. Instead they march on and on, admitting more and more members and have only a goal of 'ever closer union'. Whilst I don't think it was at any immediate risk of happening, as things stand I think it is entirely on the cards that a European superstate with no sovereign governments in each country could happen in time...because they won't rule it out.

The idea that member states might seek to draw a line at the level of integration they want is not something the EU has ever considered (I don't think they've even got their heads around the fact that not all member states want the Euro), and over the past 2 years, they appear to have learnt no lessons of their own in that a significant member state has voted to leave. They appear to believe that Brexit is a one off and none of the other member states will seriously consider leaving. There appears to be no prospect of reform to make sure that nobody else feels the need to leave, which does beg the genuine question as to whether Brexit really is a mistake after all.

But back to Cameron. His gamble of course spectacularly failed and he fell on his sword which was the only thing he could do, but falling on his sword is not enough for me. His motivation to gamble on major constitutional change to our country was simply over trying to secure his own personal legacy, not about enabling democracy and the will of the people. Whether Brexit is right or wrong, it was initiated for all the wrong reasons.

In the wake of what he has done, the Tory party has been left a complete shambles with more infighting than the final years of John Major. He has left me and huge swathes of other people politically homeless as we can no longer contemplate voting Tory any more. Given that Labour has been hijacked by momentum who are intent on hammering it to the extreme left (but as I said in a previous post, has a huge Euro-sceptic as their leader which for me is the single reason I fail to understand the support of Corbyn amongst young left wingers), we needed a strong Conservative party more than ever to see out these years of madness for Labour and hope that they return to centrist politics again.

Instead we have this mess. So yeah, you are a dick Cameron. In fact I would rather use a stronger four letter expletive starting with 'C'.
all new Phil
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cwathen wrote: Fri 23 Nov, 2018 20.23
Philip wrote: Thu 22 Nov, 2018 17.36 I think we can all agree that David Cameron is a dick though.
At this point, yes. A huge dick. I always championed Cameron from the time he became leader in 2005. He did feel like the breath of fresh air needed, a younger and more dynamic man who hadn't been an MP under any previous Tory administration and the first credible leader the Tories had post-1997 who looked like he could give Tony Blair a run for his money. I was convinced from his first performance at PMQs as leader of the opposition that this was the next Prime Minister (well, after Gordon Brown anyway) and I was right.

Once Blair had gone he blew Gordon Brown out of the water and it was no surprise to see him become Prime Minister in 2010. I was very happy with his performance during the coalition government and was delighted to see a majority Tory government returned in 2015...and then the excrement hit the air conditioning unit as that majority led to the Brexit referendum.

Brexit in Cameron's eyes was never about truly asking the people whether or not they wanted to be in Europe. It was simply a way of silencing the Euro-sceptics in his party. Europe had been tearing the tories apart at least since Maastricht (and arguably long before that). He wanted to be the man that unified the party, and his methodology was simply to pull the rug out from the Euro-sceptics and deny them a platform. It was to be his legacy.

There was of course an assumption that we would never actually vote to leave which is what Cameron gambled on. I do think it's unfair to label that an arrogant assumption of Cameron's, as it was assumed pretty much universally amongst all sides. Just as the Brexit results coverage started, one of the earliest interviews was with Nigel Farage, who was already conceding defeat, predicting that 'remain probably have just squeaked it'. I think the result was as much a shock to him as everyone else.

The EU themselves failed to seriously negotiate for change with Cameron in the belief that we wouldn't vote to leave. I do think in all of this they are being let off rather lightly through their failure to define what their goal is, to define when Europe will be 'done'. Instead they march on and on, admitting more and more members and have only a goal of 'ever closer union'. Whilst I don't think it was at any immediate risk of happening, as things stand I think it is entirely on the cards that a European superstate with no sovereign governments in each country could happen in time...because they won't rule it out.

The idea that member states might seek to draw a line at the level of integration they want is not something the EU has ever considered (I don't think they've even got their heads around the fact that not all member states want the Euro), and over the past 2 years, they appear to have learnt no lessons of their own in that a significant member state has voted to leave. They appear to believe that Brexit is a one off and none of the other member states will seriously consider leaving. There appears to be no prospect of reform to make sure that nobody else feels the need to leave, which does beg the genuine question as to whether Brexit really is a mistake after all.

But back to Cameron. His gamble of course spectacularly failed and he fell on his sword which was the only thing he could do, but falling on his sword is not enough for me. His motivation to gamble on major constitutional change to our country was simply over trying to secure his own personal legacy, not about enabling democracy and the will of the people. Whether Brexit is right or wrong, it was initiated for all the wrong reasons.

In the wake of what he has done, the Tory party has been left a complete shambles with more infighting than the final years of John Major. He has left me and huge swathes of other people politically homeless as we can no longer contemplate voting Tory any more. Given that Labour has been hijacked by momentum who are intent on hammering it to the extreme left (but as I said in a previous post, has a huge Euro-sceptic as their leader which for me is the single reason I fail to understand the support of Corbyn amongst young left wingers), we needed a strong Conservative party more than ever to see out these years of madness for Labour and hope that they return to centrist politics again.

Instead we have this mess. So yeah, you are a dick Cameron. In fact I would rather use a stronger four letter expletive starting with 'C'.
Great post and I lot I can identify with.

I suppose the question that comes to mind, though, is if Cameron hadn’t committed to the referendum, what would have happened? How much longer could we have gone on for without settling our EU membership as an issue? He called the referendum because demand for it was growing. Surely the referendum would have happened eventually?
Thought this was a nice forum, clearly not.
Square Eyes
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Cameron offered the referendum to neutralise the effect that UKIP was having on the Conservative vote not just because of a few dissenting Euro Sceptic Tory MP's. And it worked in the short term as he won in 2015 with a majority.

But it spectacularly backfired as what was entirely a Tory party problem has became a national constitutional crisis. Some legacy. It was never likely to be necessary to have a vote if not for Conservative Party self preservation.
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WillPS
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Love the notion that David Cameron's legacy is only crap because he made one big stupid gamble which has pretty badly screwed the country up.

What about the NHS, which is now so badly debilitated that the biggest cash boost it has ever been given is not nearly enough to correct the chronic underfunding it's endured?

What about schools which have been similarly starved with no budget correction in sight?

What about the growing numbers of elderly people unable to leave hospital because there is no provision for them?

What about homelessness, which has risen by 169% since 2010?

What about the councils which have been stripped to the point where a dozen or so face actual bankruptcy?

What about crime? After all those years boasting that their 'streamlining' programme was not adversely affecting crime... turns out there is a lag between cutting police budgets and the risk/reward balance for criminals changing.

This is Cameron and Osborne's legacy.

The ridiculous gamble to stymie off UKIP without regard for the damage a negative result would cause just proves how utterly hollow his/their rhetoric on 'fiscal responsibility', 'respect for the union' etc etc really was.

Selfish tossers.

They, and Theresa May have all completely failed - even in their own stupid deficit-obsessed terms.

They deserve nothing less than the annihilation and terrible reputation history books will assign to them.

The sooner this whole embarrassing era is terminated the better.
cwathen wrote: Fri 23 Nov, 2018 20.23 Once Blair had gone he blew Gordon Brown out of the water and it was no surprise to see him become Prime Minister in 2010.
Don't rewrite history. Gordon Brown wasn't blown out of the water, he was defeated in a race nobody expected him to win (in fact he did rather better than expected). 'Blown out of the water' is what happens when a party decisively wins control.
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Andrew
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all new Phil wrote: Fri 23 Nov, 2018 20.49
cwathen wrote: Fri 23 Nov, 2018 20.23
Philip wrote: Thu 22 Nov, 2018 17.36 I think we can all agree that David Cameron is a dick though.
At this point, yes. A huge dick. I always championed Cameron from the time he became leader in 2005. He did feel like the breath of fresh air needed, a younger and more dynamic man who hadn't been an MP under any previous Tory administration and the first credible leader the Tories had post-1997 who looked like he could give Tony Blair a run for his money. I was convinced from his first performance at PMQs as leader of the opposition that this was the next Prime Minister (well, after Gordon Brown anyway) and I was right.

Once Blair had gone he blew Gordon Brown out of the water and it was no surprise to see him become Prime Minister in 2010. I was very happy with his performance during the coalition government and was delighted to see a majority Tory government returned in 2015...and then the excrement hit the air conditioning unit as that majority led to the Brexit referendum.

Brexit in Cameron's eyes was never about truly asking the people whether or not they wanted to be in Europe. It was simply a way of silencing the Euro-sceptics in his party. Europe had been tearing the tories apart at least since Maastricht (and arguably long before that). He wanted to be the man that unified the party, and his methodology was simply to pull the rug out from the Euro-sceptics and deny them a platform. It was to be his legacy.

There was of course an assumption that we would never actually vote to leave which is what Cameron gambled on. I do think it's unfair to label that an arrogant assumption of Cameron's, as it was assumed pretty much universally amongst all sides. Just as the Brexit results coverage started, one of the earliest interviews was with Nigel Farage, who was already conceding defeat, predicting that 'remain probably have just squeaked it'. I think the result was as much a shock to him as everyone else.

The EU themselves failed to seriously negotiate for change with Cameron in the belief that we wouldn't vote to leave. I do think in all of this they are being let off rather lightly through their failure to define what their goal is, to define when Europe will be 'done'. Instead they march on and on, admitting more and more members and have only a goal of 'ever closer union'. Whilst I don't think it was at any immediate risk of happening, as things stand I think it is entirely on the cards that a European superstate with no sovereign governments in each country could happen in time...because they won't rule it out.

The idea that member states might seek to draw a line at the level of integration they want is not something the EU has ever considered (I don't think they've even got their heads around the fact that not all member states want the Euro), and over the past 2 years, they appear to have learnt no lessons of their own in that a significant member state has voted to leave. They appear to believe that Brexit is a one off and none of the other member states will seriously consider leaving. There appears to be no prospect of reform to make sure that nobody else feels the need to leave, which does beg the genuine question as to whether Brexit really is a mistake after all.

But back to Cameron. His gamble of course spectacularly failed and he fell on his sword which was the only thing he could do, but falling on his sword is not enough for me. His motivation to gamble on major constitutional change to our country was simply over trying to secure his own personal legacy, not about enabling democracy and the will of the people. Whether Brexit is right or wrong, it was initiated for all the wrong reasons.

In the wake of what he has done, the Tory party has been left a complete shambles with more infighting than the final years of John Major. He has left me and huge swathes of other people politically homeless as we can no longer contemplate voting Tory any more. Given that Labour has been hijacked by momentum who are intent on hammering it to the extreme left (but as I said in a previous post, has a huge Euro-sceptic as their leader which for me is the single reason I fail to understand the support of Corbyn amongst young left wingers), we needed a strong Conservative party more than ever to see out these years of madness for Labour and hope that they return to centrist politics again.

Instead we have this mess. So yeah, you are a dick Cameron. In fact I would rather use a stronger four letter expletive starting with 'C'.
Great post and I lot I can identify with.

I suppose the question that comes to mind, though, is if Cameron hadn’t committed to the referendum, what would have happened? How much longer could we have gone on for without settling our EU membership as an issue? He called the referendum because demand for it was growing. Surely the referendum would have happened eventually?
What would have happened is that the momentum behind UKIP would have continued to grow, with them gaining more share of the vote and possibly some MPs.

If Government policy was not to give the public a vote, it’s likely Labour would have made it their policy to give the public a vote.

Hence as you say, the referendum would have happened eventually
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