The BIG MetroPoll - IN or OUT ?

[Alexia]

Anyone would think there's a racism element involved somewhere with these people...

Envy. Envy of people brave enough to leave their home to seek a better life. Envy of people intelligent enough to speak two languages fluently. Envy of people who are skilled in building, plumbing, cooking and customer service. Envy of people who have come from genuine poverty and not only-one-holiday-a-year poverty.

Which leads to resentment. Which leads to anger.

Which totally distracts from the fact that employers are the bogeymen by deliberately seeking out cheap imported labour, from the EU and elsewhere. Which distracts from the fact that in a lot of cases the unemployable only have themselves to blame for their lack of skills and/or knowledge due to their inattentiveness / inattendance of school and unwillingness to learn a trade. Which distracts from the fact that this is not a poor, destitute country unable to support a few million extra residents in the long term. Which distracts from the fact that the biggest contributor to population growth is unprotected sex amongst idiot teenagers.

The answers to society's problems aren't pull up the drawbridge. It's much more complicated than that.

[bilky asko]

Funny how many brexiters talk about the migrant crisis and Muslims and the like. Not like leaving the EU would really do much about them. Very rarely do I hear them moan about eastern Europeans, which leaving the EU would actually have an effect on.

I don't hear them whinging about French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Scandinavian immigrants either. Or Americans or Canadians. Yet there's loads of those over here too.

For those who are interested, some percentages:


(Source)

[robschneider]

It's not racist to want controlled and limited immigration.

[Alexia]

It's not racist to want controlled and limited immigration.

It is if you limit it to certain nationalities and ethnicities.

It's also racist if you choose to reap the benefits of one group of ethnicities (McDonalds from America) while railing against the benefits of another group of ethnicities (taxi drivers at 3am from Bangladesh).

[bilky asko]

It's not racist to want controlled and limited immigration.

It is if you limit it to certain nationalities and ethnicities

Which, of course, is a description that applies to the way the EU works at the moment.

[dosxuk]

It's not racist to want controlled and limited immigration.

Which is a point which keeps getting swept under the carpet - it looks increasingly likely that if we leave the EU and want to be part of their trade group, we will be forced to continue to accept free movement, like the poster-countries.

So I can't accept "regaining control of our borders" as an argument for leaving either.

[Sput]

It's not racist to want controlled and limited immigration.

It is if you limit it to certain nationalities and ethnicities

Which, of course, is a description that applies to the way the EU works at the moment.

Just nationalities, when you think about it. And we're the ones discriminating, not the EU: we could set the rules for non-EU migrants arriving in the UK to be the same as those from the EU right now with no Brexit needed. This way you also get away from so-called "merit-based" systems that consider only qualifications, and the demographic biases these introduce that indirectly favour individual wealth and ethnicity.

I also don't buy this argument that countries are discriminated against by not having made an agreement for free movement. Firstly, it's their choice not to negotiate, and secondly because preferential movement of labour between neighbouring countries isn't unique to the EU, and this seems to be on the up.

HELLO EVERYONE. SORRY I'M LATE. I hope nobody preaching about ageism has used the phrase "old geezer" in this thread.

[james2001]

I admit I have to laugh when I hear die-hard Brexiters saying "everyone I know will be voting to Leave". Because of course people are going to tell them they're going to vote to remain and risk getting a lecture and being bullied into voting Leave.

Not to mention most people mix with people who tend to be more likely share their views too, so it's not suprising that Leavers may find most of their friends are also going to vote that way. If I was to go by the people I know, nearly everyone would be voting to remain, but I'm realistic and know the people I know are hardly likely to be representative.

And I also laugh when they're telling us all the opinion polls that show Remain in the lead are discredited and unreliable. Because I'm sure they'd take that tone if they were showing Leave in the lead... as if.

[bilky asko]

It is if you limit it to certain nationalities and ethnicities

Which, of course, is a description that applies to the way the EU works at the moment.

Just nationalities, when you think about it. And we're the ones discriminating, not the EU: we could set the rules for non-EU migrants arriving in the UK to be the same as those from the EU right now with no Brexit needed. This way you also get away from so-called "merit-based" systems that consider only qualifications, and the demographic biases these introduce that indirectly favour individual wealth and ethnicity.

I also don't buy this argument that countries are discriminated against by not having made an agreement for free movement. Firstly, it's their choice not to negotiate, and secondly because preferential movement of labour between neighbouring countries isn't unique to the EU, and this seems to be on the up.

HELLO EVERYONE. SORRY I'M LATE. I hope nobody preaching about ageism has used the phrase "old geezer" in this thread.

I use the phrase "any old" as liberally as I'd use "blackboard", "brainstorm", or "tommyrot".

Yes, the ethnicities bit doesn't apply.

I agree with the majority of your post, but I don't think the EU doesn't have a part to play in ensuring that non-EU migrants are discriminated against. Outside the EU you could have free movement that can be equally restricted in case of extraordinary strain on infrastructure, for example.

Ultimately, migration isn't the deciding factor for me in this debate; I think that the current position does discriminate against non-EU migrants in cases where reasonable restrictions are required (not an arbitrary figure or an attempt to stop culture spreading in the glorious way that it does and should).

[bilky asko]

I admit I have to laugh when I hear die-hard Brexiters saying "everyone I know will be voting to Leave". Because of course people are going to tell them they're going to vote to remain and risk getting a lecture and being bullied into voting Leave.

Not to mention most people mix with people who tend to be more likely share their views too, so it's not suprising that Leavers may find most of their friends are also going to vote that way. If I was to go by the people I know, nearly everyone would be voting to remain, but I'm realistic and know the people I know are hardly likely to be representative.

And I also laugh when they're telling us all the opinion polls that show Remain in the lead are discredited and unreliable. Because I'm sure they'd take that tone if they were showing Leave in the lead... as if.

It is hard to trust the polls considering their recent failure.

Personally, my immediate family is split 50-50, the work colleagues I speak to are predominantly leave, and other people I associate with are a mixture of Leave, Remain, and quite a few undecided/don't care.

My feeling is that Leave will succeed, partly because of the feeling I've got of a high level of engagement. Whether or not I'm correct on that score, I reckon the turnout figures should secure a result that's hard to contest, even if it is quite close.

[james2001]

There was a very high level of "Yes" engagement in the Scottish referendum (look how many more "Yes" stickers, posters, street stalls and social media activity there was than "No Thanks" ones), but they still didn't win, so I wouldn't take what you're seeing there in terms of meaning anything. The Brexiters might have all the passion and shout the loudest (they're the ones pushing for change after all- just like the "Yes" side in Scotland), but it doesn't mean they're in the majority.

And yes, the pollsters have been wrong recently, but the polls have been showing pretty consistent leads for Remain, they can't be THAT wrong. I find it hard to believe it could be that consistent if Leave really was ahead unless the pollsters really have royally screwed up. They did predict the Tories coming second in Holyrood after all, even though everyone was dismissing the idea even on the night.