Public Transport in your particular part of the region

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WillPS
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cwathen wrote:
Pete wrote:The Class 800s are due to start replacing them in 2017 so I'd have thought it'd be acceptable as they're mid way through being removed.

There are rumblings about the Mk 4 carriages that'll get punted from the ECML by the 801s being redone and pulled by a new generation of diesel locos (possibly an off the shelf Bombardier TRAXX). They can't use the Class 43s as the electrical system is incompatible.
Is it definite that the HSTs are going altogether? Last I heard they will be phased out on the newly electrified sections of the GWML which means things like an HST from PAD-BRI will be a thing of the past but HSTs will still be retained for services like PAD-PLY/PGN/PNZ where the western part of the route will not be electrified? I would also have thought it would make sense to displace the rest (possibly in a 5 carriage formation) onto longer distance regional routes such as BRI-PNZ and CDF-PGN which are currently often run by a couple of 150's coupled together and are screaming out for something better on such a long journey - the displaced sprinters released could then be used to strength local services which often lack on frequency and/or capacity.

And that's only FGW services, HSTs still see heavy use on non-electrified routes by every other operator that runs them. Apart from the EMT sets which still have the original interiors and 2nd generation VP185 engines, all other HSTs underwent major refurb to include new MTU engines in the power cars in the late 2000's

It would seem a bit odd to have done the MTU programme on the Class 43s and full refits of the MK3s for only 12 years or so of further use which really isn't a long time in train terms - if they were all going to be phased out by 2020 due to DDA then you would've thought that the original Valenta engines could have undergone some sort of overhaul to make them soldier on until then?
HSTs are not at all suited to regional work. Although their top speed is much higher than any Sprinter their acceleration is not great, making stop/starts on them inefficient (not to mention the fact they'll need *major* refurbishment to continue in service).

Although EMT HSTs still have the original IC70 seating they are not by any means the original interior. The lighting has changed (for the worse), the upholstery and carpets have changed several times, the layouts have been changed and they've also been repainted (internally as well as externally) in the last 5 years. GC HSTs also have their original seat frames.

The Valenta engines were seriously unreliable by the end of their lives. The MTU programme was done on the basis of a 12 year service life payback; the VP185 programme (as Midland Mainline did) was based on an 8-10 year life. ROSCOs aren't daft, they'll have done the sums!
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cwathen
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HSTs are not at all suited to regional work. Although their top speed is much higher than any Sprinter their acceleration is not great, making stop/starts on them inefficient (not to mention the fact they'll need *major* refurbishment to continue in service).
They're not as bad as you might think, FGW have long used them for stopping services - I board an HST every morning at Torre which stops at every intermediate station up to Exeter, and they cope with the job admirably, the overall journey time is only a few minutes longer than a Sprinter working the same diagram. The main problem with regional work lies in the difficulty of dispatching such a large train off an unstaffed station with no platform staff to help - shutting all the doors etc. A sprinter might well beat them off the lights from a platform but it doesn't take long before the HST catches up and leaves it long behind and I would've expected that part of any redeployment for regional work would be looking at higher line speeds rather than working diagrams designed for 75MPH stock. If they were reduced to 5 car formations you would also see a substantial improvement in acceleration as well as making an unassisted dispatch easier.
The Valenta engines were seriously unreliable by the end of their lives. The MTU programme was done on the basis of a 12 year service life payback; the VP185 programme (as Midland Mainline did) was based on an 8-10 year life. ROSCOs aren't daft, they'll have done the sums!
Granted, many Valentas were on their last legs by 2006/7 and it was sad to see that by this time pretty much any HST failure would be down to a Valenta power car - but I strongly suspect this was because they were being denied overhauls they badly needed; the plan was to run the Valentas into the ground as any significant failure would just result in that power car getting bumped up the list for an MTU, there were many Valentas still running in excellent condition right up to the end (including the very final one, 43123 which survived until December 2010). Go back only a few years to 2003/4 before the MTU trial started and I don't recall any significant problems with Valentas. The ROSCOs may well have planned for payback within 12 years on the MTUs but payback alone is surely not enough for a commercial venture - to deliver a true return on their investment they will need to see a profit which means running the MTUs for a lot longer than 12 years. If the plan was for the trains to only last another 12 years up to 2019 then I would've thought overhauling Valentas would have been the way forward.
Alexia
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GWML HSTs will continue to work anything to Penzance as that is not going to have any knitting any time soon.

I've no idea if the Kemble branch is getting wired, so HSTs may still need to run to Cheltenham. Same with lines to Oxford, Worcester and Hereford.

We've been told that when the lekky is up, there'll be 4tph to Brizzle, 3tph to South Wales (2 Cardiffs and 1 Swansea - whether one of these will be a fast service missing out Reading / Didcot / BPway or not we've yet to see).

HSTs have a bit of life left in them yet. They are currently undergoing a mini refurb - having WIFI fitted, cutting down to max 1.5 carriages of 1stClass, new plugs, improved catering etc.

Of course, the franchise is up the year after next ....



EDIT: Just seen cwathen's reply -- HSTs will stop at regional stations as part of their InterCity timetable granted, but that's timetabled in with a higher dwell time. You try running a local service on HST timed dwell stops and see how far you get. Plus as you say single-manning a HST and closing and checking all doors, plus keeping an eye on the bike shed etc. would be prohibitively wasteful and time consuming. It's also a massive waste of stock capabilities running a 125mph to a 75mph diagram. That's 50mph of wasted power, basically.
cwathen
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EDIT: Just seen cwathen's reply -- HSTs will stop at regional stations as part of their InterCity timetable granted, but that's timetabled in with a higher dwell time. You try running a local service on HST timed dwell stops and see how far you get. Plus as you say single-manning a HST and closing and checking all doors, plus keeping an eye on the bike shed etc. would be prohibitively wasteful and time consuming.
Interestingly enough, about 3 or 4 times over the past few months there have been random mornings on my commute in on the stopping HST where SDO at short platform stations was made more restrictive than usual - stations which normally accommodate 4/5 carriages only having 2 carriages unlocked etc. The first time it happened I thought the guard was just having a bad day, but the last time I noticed the guard seemed to be in a mad rush to get all the doors shut and back on board even though the train would sit there for a further minute until it's departure time, making this quick operation completely unnecessary for the diagram. I am wondering if there is some sort of official trial going on to only open 2 carriages at quiet stations to see if dwell times can be squeezed when worked by an HST - which might possibly be with a view to greater use on regional routes?
It's also a massive waste of stock capabilities running a 125mph to a 75mph diagram. That's 50mph of wasted power, basically.
But surely the idea is that if you can get an HST to permanently work a longer-distance regional route, then the diagram need not be limited to 75MPH where the line speed is greater.
Alexia
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cwathen wrote:
It's also a massive waste of stock capabilities running a 125mph to a 75mph diagram. That's 50mph of wasted power, basically.
But surely the idea is that if you can get an HST to permanently work a longer-distance regional route, then the diagram need not be limited to 75MPH where the line speed is greater.
That would be ideal if the network was one train on one line. However that train has to fit in with other trains in and around it. If you suddenly start speeding up a 75mph diagram to 90mph or even 125mph on ML stretches, you end up either buggering up services ahead (by catching up too quickly) or leaving enormous gaps in the time table when the next service behind it is a 70mph chugger.

It's all swings and roundabouts, but the long and short of it is that HSTs were designed for InterCity work, and unlike Voyagers or Meridians or Adelantes are not glorified DMUs with "backward compatibility" for want of a better phrase.
cwathen
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Even where I work we still refer to Network SouthEast on some systems!
NSE doesn't quite seem willing to die - you can still buy a 'Network' Railcard which is not a railcard for the entire national rail network as could reasonably be assumed by it's title but is instead a direct continuation of the earlier railcard which existed for Network SouthEast, and the area it covers is essentially what NSE was plus a few extensions. If you buy a train ticket using the card it will still display 'NSE' as the railcard code on the ticket to this day.

As an aside, the Network Railcard is IMO one of the overlooked bargains of the rail network - with mine I can buy a walk up ticket from Exeter to London for around £40 for an open return (albeit off peak and with the caveat of taking the slower SWT route via Salisbury to Waterloo) - often that price can't be beaten even with advance tickets.
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WillPS
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The Network Railcard pretty nicely illustrates what a total mess privatisation has been as far as everyday passengers are concerned.
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thegeek
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cwathen wrote:As an aside, the Network Railcard is IMO one of the overlooked bargains of the rail network - with mine I can buy a walk up ticket from Exeter to London for around £40 for an open return (albeit off peak and with the caveat of taking the slower SWT route via Salisbury to Waterloo) - often that price can't be beaten even with advance tickets.
See also the Network Gold Card, issued to holders of an annual season ticket (or travelcard) in the NSE area - it doesn't have the same minimum fare as the Network Railcard, and the discount can be added to an Oyster card for 1/3 off off-peak PAYG fares.
I never did the sums to find out if I actually did save money, but I'm fairly certain that the year I bought a Ryde Esplanade - Ryde St John's Road annual ticket, I was better off in the long run despite never making it to the Isle of Wight.
Alexia
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West country folk - does the Devon & Cornwall railcard still exist?
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Beep
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Location: That London

Alexia wrote:West country folk - does the Devon & Cornwall railcard still exist?
https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/~/m ... t-2011.pdf

A google says it did in 2011, I'm assuming as it's on National Rail/ATOC's site it still does!
Alexia
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Joined: Sat 01 Oct, 2005 17.50

I should have just looked on FGW's site!

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Tra ... l-Railcard
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