Why is Census Question 17 Intentionally Left Blank?

Alexia
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tvmercia wrote: however, inspector's original response to you still stands. asking the population of england whether they speak welsh is has as much value as asking us what our favourite colour is. the government is charged with the task of producing a survey that is as concise and as relevant as possible.
I have responded to the response... I said that my enquiry was based on statistical curiosity, rather than political motivation. I don't see how it's irrelevant asking which languages anyone speaks, wherever they live. For example, the Welsh speaking population of Greater London is currently estimated to be at about 50,000. I think that would be an important factor for the government to consider if they ever are asked for funding for Welsh-language resources in south east England.

As I have never seen an English version of the Census, I did not know how the approach to Welsh was taken by your version of the Census. It has been shown to me in this thread that other questions offer the opportunity to relate knowledge of the language. I believe these were all points made in my Guinness/Baileys fuelled epic last night.

As for B3 KEN, well fair enough, but as I explained I don't hold any more of a torch for the Welsh nazis any more than you do; the shrieking from some parts of the Welsh language lobby is as embarrassing to us as it is offensive to you.
B3 REV
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Gavin Scott wrote:
B3 REV wrote:Welsh is just as foreign as Punjab, Urdu, Arabic etc and should not come above the rest, especially when there's more speakers the latter.
There's a significant difference - Wales is a part of the Union - or a Principality of England if you prefer.

Despite the fact that more people may speak Chinese in England, for example, the Welsh language - from a heritage standpoint if nothing else - should be considered important by the UK government. If the UK and Welsh parliaments don't address their own heritage, who will?
I take on board that argument, and I've heard it before. But the whole idea behind devolution was to give power to those who it actually affects. The Welsh Language Act 1993 was enacted by John Major's UK government because the Welsh Assembly had not been established then. The legislation was significant because it rightfully reversed the monstrosity of the laws from several hundered years ago, but despite being a Westminster act, it only applies to Wales and rightly so. Today, the Welsh Assembly government has this role which means that there is little left for the UK government (which is basically the English government with respect to devolved matters) to address.
tvmercia
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Alexia wrote:
tvmercia wrote: however, inspector's original response to you still stands. asking the population of england whether they speak welsh is has as much value as asking us what our favourite colour is. the government is charged with the task of producing a survey that is as concise and as relevant as possible.
I have responded to the response... I said that my enquiry was based on statistical curiosity, rather than political motivation.
apart from, possibly, satisfying academic curiosity, how would the question impact upon future government policy and spending within england? is it even remotely conceivable that resources might be channelled towards the welsh language outside of wales?

almost without exception welsh speakers in wales also speak some or good english, never-the-less for cultural reasons the government of wales devote significant funding to promotion of the language. it is understandable that the effectiveness of the expenditure is monitored through the census.

the same cannot be said for england

Alexia wrote:I don't see how it's irrelevant asking which languages anyone speaks, wherever they live. For example, the Welsh speaking population of Greater London is currently estimated to be at about 50,000. I think that would be an important factor for the government to consider if they ever are asked for funding for Welsh-language resources in south east England.
welsh is an official language in wales, not england.
Alexia wrote:As I have never seen an English version of the Census, I did not know how the approach to Welsh was taken by your version of the Census.
Image

seems straight forward to me. people who's first language is welsh, living in england, are given the opportunity to record the fact.
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Gavin Scott
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B3 REV wrote:
Gavin Scott wrote:
B3 REV wrote:Welsh is just as foreign as Punjab, Urdu, Arabic etc and should not come above the rest, especially when there's more speakers the latter.
There's a significant difference - Wales is a part of the Union - or a Principality of England if you prefer.

Despite the fact that more people may speak Chinese in England, for example, the Welsh language - from a heritage standpoint if nothing else - should be considered important by the UK government. If the UK and Welsh parliaments don't address their own heritage, who will?
I take on board that argument, and I've heard it before. But the whole idea behind devolution was to give power to those who it actually affects. The Welsh Language Act 1993 was enacted by John Major's UK government because the Welsh Assembly had not been established then. The legislation was significant because it rightfully reversed the monstrosity of the laws from several hundered years ago, but despite being a Westminster act, it only applies to Wales and rightly so. Today, the Welsh Assembly government has this role which means that there is little left for the UK government (which is basically the English government with respect to devolved matters) to address.
I think you've missed my point.

Welsh is not a "foreign" a language in the UK - likened by you to Urdu or Hindi, by virtue of Wales being part of the UK.

Its a simple point. The machinations of politics are irrelevant.
Alexia
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tvmercia wrote: Image
If you were to answer Question 19 as "Not At All", would that create a quantum paradox? If you cannot speak/read English, you cannot understand the question, and by answering, you would be contradicting yourself...
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Pete
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Alexia wrote:If you were to answer Question 19 as "Not At All", would that create a quantum paradox? If you cannot speak/read English, you cannot understand the question, and by answering, you would be contradicting yourself...
"He has to be larger than bacon"
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Beep
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Alexia wrote:
tvmercia wrote: Image
If you were to answer Question 19 as "Not At All", would that create a quantum paradox? If you cannot speak/read English, you cannot understand the question, and by answering, you would be contradicting yourself...
What if said individual was using an English understanding friend to translate the options and questions for them? Surely then they'd not be contradicting themselves and would be understanding.
B3 REV
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Gavin Scott wrote:Welsh is not a "foreign" a language in the UK - likened by you to Urdu or Hindi, by virtue of Wales being part of the UK.
I'm not talking about the UK as a whole, just England. Welsh is just as foreign in England as Arabic, French or Punjab.
Alexia
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Beep wrote:What if said individual was using an English understanding friend to translate the options and questions for them? Surely then they'd not be contradicting themselves and would be understanding.
Trust you to take all the fun out of my quantum paradox theory.... ;)

B3 REV wrote:
Gavin Scott wrote:Welsh is not a "foreign" a language in the UK - likened by you to Urdu or Hindi, by virtue of Wales being part of the UK.
I'm not talking about the UK as a whole, just England. Welsh is just as foreign in England as Arabic, French or Punjab.
I draw the honourable member's attention to the following chart, which illustrates the state of play of the languages of Britain in 500 AD, before the Anglic languages took a firm hold.

Image

Blue areas = Pictish mainly spoken
Green = Gaelige mainly spoken
Red = Brythonic (the immediate ancestor of Welsh & Cornish) mainly spoken

I believe this illustrates that Welsh, far from being "foreign" to England, has in fact more of a historical claim to these shores than English, and thus your point is redundant. Not that it has any bearing on this conversation at all, it just serves as a counterpoint to counter your, er, point.

Incidentally, English itself is not devoid of Brythonic influence. Welsh and Cornish words which have infiltrated English include crag, coracle, flannel and, wonderfully, penguin.
B3 REV
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Alexia wrote:I believe this illustrates that Welsh, far from being "foreign" to England, has in fact more of a historical claim to these shores than English
I don't deny that, but it was 1500 years ago, before there was any distinction between what is now England and Wales.
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Gavin Scott
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B3 REV wrote:
Alexia wrote:I believe this illustrates that Welsh, far from being "foreign" to England, has in fact more of a historical claim to these shores than English
I don't deny that, but it was 1500 years ago, before there was any distinction between what is now England and Wales.
I appreciate I'm dragging semantics into this, but "foreign" can be defined as, "belonging or connected to a country which is not your own".

In which case I believe your words are misplaced. Our country is Britain. I may live in Scotland, and consider myself Scottish, but I'm still British. If we're defined by what is contemporaneous - i.e. 1500 years ago is irrelevant because we live *now*, then right now we are British. That's what we all grew up to know and believe. Wales is part of Britain. They are part of our country.

I certainly don't deny that, from a common usage point of view, other languages are more prevalent; but I'm hung up on the word because I believe it does a dis-service to the Welsh, and carries a dismissive and arrogant tone.

If you intended it to read that way it would be an exemplar of why there is a common belief in the other nations that England believes itself profoundly superior.

For the record I'm sure that wasn't your intent - but some awareness, even empathy, of those long-standing interpretations of English attitudes towards your union partners would go a along way in a discussion such as this.

Its all in the delivery, really.
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