77% of Voters Didn't Want The Liberal Democrats

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Chie
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Joined: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 05.03

With the horror of the hung parliament shambles becoming more excruciating with every passing hour, I'm going to make an attempt at countering the old '64% of people didn't want the Conservatives' argument, purely to alleviate the monotony.

Guess what? 77% of people didn't want the Liberal Democrats!

This means that up to 77% of people:
  • Don't think it's acceptable for criminals to hurt people and break the law as long as they say sorry afterwards. (Incidentally, the Lib Dems would like to usurp short prison sentences with community service. I wonder how long before they, as a "progressive" party, decide that ritual public humiliation is barbaric?)
  • Do not wish to completely emasculate Great Britain by further amalgamating us with Europe. Nick Clegg has openly stated that he thinks Britain is too big for its boots and needs putting back in its place. He hopes to achieve this aim by devolving more power to Europe, which to my mind is tantamount to saying 'If I'm not allowed to govern the country then no one should, so we'll let Brussels decide'.
  • Do not consider electoral reform to be the most pertinent issue of our time.
  • Do not want to scrap the Trident nuclear deterrent and replace it with a pathetic land-launched system that would be completely useless now that our potential enemies' missiles are precise to within a couple of feet, or an ineffective air-launched cruise missile system, the best of which have a range of only 1500 miles.
  • Realise that standards of literacy and numeracy are at an all time low, despite the fact that billions of pounds have been poured into education and class sizes have already been reduced over the last 13 years.
  • Understand that achievement and wealth creation should not be treated as a crime.
  • Know that increasing the Adult Learning Grant to £45 per week for 18–24 year-olds in Further Education is nothing short of bribing young people to stay in education until their mid-twenties (normally learning soft subjects that are no use to man nor beast anyway) thereby burdening their parents and the state* when they could be working, paying tax and saving up to move out whilst they don't have any substantial outgoings.

    *You'll be happy to know that I recently heeded another member's advice by applying to make voluntary National Insurance contributions, so as not to risk jeopardising my entitlement to benefits or a state pension in the future.
  • Are aware that the young persons' National Minimum Wage is vital and must not be scrapped as it encourages employers to take on young people who lack the paid work experience that employers would otherwise favour, thereby giving the young a more equal footing in the jobs market.
barcode
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Joined: Wed 29 Aug, 2007 19.36

Well 63% of people never voted for a right wing government, and that 63% voted for parties who would like to consider electoral reform.
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marksi
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Go on then Chie, tell me why First Past the Post should be maintained and why it is a fair form of democracy.
cdd
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It bloody isn't.

As an example: my constituency in the usual Lib Dem propaganda has a bar chart showing Labour at about 50%, Lib Dem at about 30% and the tories at 10%. The tories were marked with a nice label saying "CAN'T WIN HERE!"

As it turned out, LD ended up with about 25% and the tories about 20%. If it weren't for tactical voting, the results would have almost certainly been much more in favour to the Tories.

Not that that would necessarily have been a good thing, but every constituency I've been in has some candidate sidelined with the suggestion that they'd be a wasted vote, and that is ridiculous.

Why can't we have a preferential voting system?
Chie
Posts: 979
Joined: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 05.03

marksi wrote:Go on then Chie, tell me why First Past the Post should be maintained and why it is a fair form of democracy.
Tell me why a party that only got 23% of the vote should be part of the government, but not a party that got 36% of the vote. That's what would happen under PR.

How do you decide which party gets which cabinet positions, anyway? Do we have another poll to find out how many people agree with the Liberal Democrats' transport policies and how many agree with Labour's, for instance, and if more than 50% of voters prefer the Lib Dem policy then they get Minister for Transport?

Of course not. It's a load of bollocks.
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WillPS
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Nobody is suggesting the LibDems should take control. It's addition, not replacement; 28% of Labour voters PLUS 23% of LibDem voters equals 51%. You can work an example with the Tories if you still believe there's a chance of that.

And voting for one party does not mean you do not want the other (although there is no way to express this without PR).
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Chie
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I know Will. Okay, I'll try and put it another way.

28% of Labour voters plus 23% of Lib Dem voters equals 51%, that's right.

23% of Lib Dem voters plus 36% of Conservative voters equals 59%.

The second combination represents the wishes of more voters than the first one. That means it's fairer, more equal. Yet Lib Dem supporters are literally taking to the streets at the prospect of such a coalition - contradicting their own principles regarding fair representation. Clear as day, they want the combination that represents the fewest voters. It's barmy.

I'm against the proposed set-up of PR because it would surely result in a coalition of the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party in perpetuity. I don't think it's very fair when you've got a massive 36% sitting there unable to participate in the direct governing of the country because a party that received a comparatively tiny 23% of the vote just so happens to agree with another smaller party more.

Then there's the issue of backroom deals, that I don't like. As I said above, what's the point when they have absolutely no idea which policy areas the majority of the electorate prefers out of the two parties? Say 80% of voters prefer Labour's health policy over the Liberal Democrats' and the coalition goes and appoints a Lib Dem as Secretary of State for Health without knowing - how is that in any way fair? If you're going to have a 'fair' electoral system that it has to be thorough. Backroom deals make a mockery of the whole concept.

Having said that, I hope the Lib Dems can come to some agreement with the Conservatives. If it happens then it is to be seen as an achievement, in my opinion. The coalition will represent the values of left and right, working together for the good of the country at a time when, to be honest, we need tough measures as well as a good balance of care and empathy, provided by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats respectively. That's more beneficial than 100% of either, isn't it?
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lukey
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I'm sorry, I'm finding this mind-boggling. Any chance you could frame this discussion in the context of balloons?
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marksi
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Chie wrote:I'm against the proposed set-up of PR because it would surely result in a coalition of the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party in perpetuity. I don't think it's very fair when you've got a massive 36% sitting there unable to participate in the direct governing of the country because a party that received a comparatively tiny 23% of the vote just so happens to agree with another smaller party more.

Then there's the issue of backroom deals, that I don't like. As I said above, what's the point when they have absolutely no idea which policy areas the majority of the electorate prefers out of the two parties? Say 80% of voters prefer Labour's health policy over the Liberal Democrats' and the coalition goes and appoints a Lib Dem as Secretary of State for Health without knowing - how is that in any way fair? If you're going to have a 'fair' electoral system that it has to be thorough. Backroom deals make a mockery of the whole concept.

Having said that, I hope the Lib Dems can come to some agreement with the Conservatives. If it happens then it is to be seen as an achievement, in my opinion. The coalition will represent the values of left and right, working together for the good of the country at a time when, to be honest, we need tough measures as well as a good balance of care and empathy, provided by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats respectively. That's more beneficial than 100% of either, isn't it?
You can't object to a voting system because it might result in a result you personally don't agree with.

That is not democracy. Everyone's vote should count equally.

Conservatives 34,989 votes per seat won.
Labour 33,350 votes per seat won.
Liberal Democrat 119,788 votes per seat won.

Fair?
barcode
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I still dont understand, why are you not happy with the lib dem demanding only about one policy, which included protest, before there entry a coalition?

Most people only want one thing in this coalition, and thats PR, I cant see how the lib dem could have any say in Europe,immigration even defence, Like hell there would have a chance! there may have a chance on other policies like education, health, tax reform. I never show Nick clegg coming out with a beggars bowl to David, It was david who is whoooing nick. With PR lib dems would STILL have the fewest number of seat out of the big three parties.

I think we have gotten to the bottom of why you dislike PR, because you think that the tories can never win government with this system. Well if this Deal goes ahead it kinda puts the steam out of your argument on this point, also Tories used to get 43% of the vote, thats a big chunk and there no guarantee, lib dem would still hold on to power every time with labour. The raise of the small parties, and I bet there will be few others who would swing towards the tories, If you look across at the water in Germany there 5 big parties but we do end up with a tone of colourful collations.
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Pete
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A facinating post, lets go through it piece by piece shall we.
Chie wrote:
  • Don't think it's acceptable for criminals to hurt people and break the law as long as they say sorry afterwards. (Incidentally, the Lib Dems would like to usurp short prison sentences with community service. I wonder how long before they, as a "progressive" party, decide that ritual public humiliation is barbaric?)
So you believe the only way to deal with an offender is to throw them into jail and throw away the key? Note how well that works in the US. Their manefesto is that they will avoid prison sentences under six months when necessary, therefore making prison the place for more serious offenders with long term sentences. Currently, the prisons - as we so often hear - are rather full, and a large number of these are people who are in there because of some of the stupid offenses that labour have dreamed up over the last decade and shoved a prison term on to. This is not the best use of prison, and its damn expensive.

There are numerous articles, which I can't be bothered to find, that explain how sticking the type of stupid kid who does petty crime into prison often makes them worse when they come out. They end up associating with worse people and it makes them more likely to reoffend. Therefore giving them a community sentence, which lets not forget is meant to be humiliating, is not only more useful to the community (cleaning graffiti etc) but is less likely to get them mixed up with even more nefarious types.

What exactly is the problem with this? It does not imply that if I can kill someone and get away with it. It suggests that short term sentences are useless.
Chie wrote:
  • Do not wish to completely emasculate Great Britain by further amalgamating us with Europe. Nick Clegg has openly stated that he thinks Britain is too big for its boots and needs putting back in its place. He hopes to achieve this aim by devolving more power to Europe, which to my mind is tantamount to saying 'If I'm not allowed to govern the country then no one should, so we'll let Brussels decide'.
When did he state that exactly? Is this the Nazi Slur article again?
Chie wrote:
  • Do not want to scrap the Trident nuclear deterrent and replace it with a pathetic land-launched system that would be completely useless now that our potential enemies' missiles are precise to within a couple of feet, or an ineffective air-launched cruise missile system, the best of which have a range of only 1500 miles.
What exactly are the point of our nuclear weapons at the moment Chie? When would we use them, what do they deter? They are a relic of the cold war and should be disposed of.

I'm not one of these people who comes out with the "we need to ask the Americans" line because I don't think its accurate, however given that any attack on our soil would more likely be a "dirty bomb" carried by a person rather than a missle from a govt, is it really useful? And what good would the thing do afterwards exactly bar a nasty style of revenge?

Those likely to attack Britain - not that I believe there is a perinant threat - are more likely to be the crazed terrorist loon types. These people, not being governments, are more concerned about killing people due to their warped mindset rather than gaining any sort of political leverage so the idea that Britain could flatten, say, Islamabad in retaliation doesn't matter to them. After all, they have no aversion to killing "their own people" in bomb attacks.

So what we're left with is a system that allows us to attack people who have nothing to do with the initial attack in the first place whilst simultaniously being expensive and hypocritical.

Fab.
Chie wrote:
  • Realise that standards of literacy and numeracy are at an all time low, despite the fact that billions of pounds have been poured into education and class sizes have already been reduced over the last 13 years.
Having not been in the English education system for 10 years I'll pass on this one.
Chie wrote:
  • Understand that achievement and wealth creation should not be treated as a crime.
Oh yes, you're right, that "send anyone who makes over £100k to prison, but give them a community setance if they agree to a pay cut" pledge is a bit of a bad one isn't it.

Chie wrote:
  • Know that increasing the Adult Learning Grant to £45 per week for 18–24 year-olds in Further Education is nothing short of bribing young people to stay in education until their mid-twenties (normally learning soft subjects that are no use to man nor beast anyway) thereby burdening their parents and the state* when they could be working, paying tax and saving up to move out whilst they don't have any substantial outgoings.

    *You'll be happy to know that I recently heeded another member's advice by applying to make voluntary National Insurance contributions, so as not to risk jeopardising my entitlement to benefits or a state pension in the future.
Again, I can only speak for the Scottish system that I've experienced, however for those who basically have only the grants / bursarys to live on, its not much. I've nearly always needed a job to get by and if it wasn't for a bit of family money and Lloyds TSB's lovely overdraft I'd have not got through uni and I'm on the highest bursary they do. But ho hum.
Chie wrote:
  • Are aware that the young persons' National Minimum Wage is vital and must not be scrapped as it encourages employers to take on young people who lack the paid work experience that employers would otherwise favour, thereby giving the young a more equal footing in the jobs market.
I was personally under the impression that shops and the like often employed kids more because they are inexperienced and thus can be bossed around more without knowing their rights rather than the cheapness (that doesn't last that long anyhow).
"He has to be larger than bacon"
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