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[Pete]

and unfortunately you cannot be sacked from the forums.

Sadly I don't moderate anymore.

[Gavin Scott]

In response to Gavin- They are two completely different things firstly this is a TV forum which people go on to discuss the latest Presentation in television and look at future media complex’s such as Salford Quays. The other is a professional organization who employs people to get paid to broadcast on live television. I Doubt there have not been times when you have been prejudiced like this behind closed doors. however it is a part of life and unfortunately you cannot be sacked from the forums. And I doubt the majority of people watching sky sports could give a Damn what they said. I am in no means saying it was acceptable however Sexism happens all the time and if each time it did the offender got sacked then programmes like Loose Women would have no panellists.

The comments were not personally about her but female officials in general and I doubt the reason he was sacked was over this issue but because Sky want to restructure and this has given the opportunity to do so. Richard Keys had made comments about the Scotland v Faroe Islands match and also about Theo Walcott however was not sacked on either occasion. Add to the fact Mr Gray is taking legal action against the News of the World.

Lets take things piece by piece.

Forums do have rules about how members should conduct themselves. Failure to comply with these rules can get you turfed out - "fired", if you prefer. These rules can be flexible and are open to interpretation, but are generally there to ensure that everyone has an enjoyable experience.

Some might argue - and I sometimes do - that the experience for many can be spoiled by the actions of a few members who - whilst not technically breaking the rules - post rubbish and post it often. Should they be banned? Should the people criticising them be banned?

Those questions are answered by the mods and admin who must decide for themselves what to do.

In a professional environment, there are also rules which govern conduct and behaviour, and there are laws and courts to back that up. If someone feels they've been let down by an employer who fails to take their grievance seriously, then they have the prerogative to take that matter up in the court.

Saying "that's life" doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. Lots of things happen in life - doesn't mean they should be shrugged off necessarily. People may turn a blind eye to some things; but once a complaint is made - or in this case, footage of events being leaked to the press - then the cat is out of the bag. An employer has the legal responsibility to respond - to at least be seen to do the right thing - and Sky were put in that position.

Was it a great conspiracy? Did Sky have a hand in releasing footage? Who knows. It doesn't make any difference - if Gray hadn't behaved in that way then he'd be sitting in a studio right now doing the job.That footage wasn't tampered with - he said what he said and then got sacked once it became public. Who's fault is that? Mine? Yours?

It was his.

Loose Women may say, "men never put the toilet seat down", but that's not the same as suggesting that a co-worker who is male cannot do the job properly based on their gender. Telling a colleague that another co-worker is attractive isn't harassment - but it is if you ask that co worker do slip their hand down your trousers to sort your mic cable.

Don't you get it? Don't you see the difference?

This may not feel like a "big deal" to you - but one day you might have a wife or daughter who has a job which she won on merit, and overhear her being derided and objectified simply due to her gender. As you said, "it wasn't that one woman they were referring to - it was female officials in general". That is discrimination in all its glory.

It might seem trivial on the face of it - but these are not behaviours people should have to tolerate in a work environment.

Don't make excuses for people who do the wrong thing.

[Alexia]

Counterpoint: I don't approve of Loose Women's cavalier approach to gender relations - some of the things they say help to influence stereotypes. They may be amusing and, when compared to what Gray and Keys said, relatively harmless, but is it not an example of feminism taken too far? I'm all for girl power, but shouldn't it be about promoting women's strengths rather than belittling men's apparent weaknesses (many of which are very subjective anyway)?

[Gavin Scott]

Counterpoint: I don't approve of Loose Women's cavalier approach to gender relations - some of the things they say help to influence stereotypes. They may be amusing and, when compared to what Gray and Keys said, relatively harmless, but is it not an example of feminism taken too far? I'm all for girl power, but shouldn't it be about promoting women's strengths rather than belittling men's apparent weaknesses (many of which are very subjective anyway)?

That may be true, but you're talking about the content of the show rather than the behaviour of the talent in the workplace.

Gray was sacked (according to Sky Sports) for the incident in December, which is the one where he asked the female floor manager to tuck his cable into his pants. So, this isn't really a question of the "thought police" and "not being able to express an opinion" and other excuses made by apologists - its the same standard you'd be held to in any workplace - don't harass or unfairly impugn your colleagues.

Women wittering about "man flu" may not be helpful in equality terms, but if they're professional and respectful to their production team, then they're not in breach of the rule, are they?

Besides, "man flu" is rubbish, as this man will tell you.

[Alexia]

I get the difference between on-air content and off-air behaviour and Gray and Keys have got the right punishment in my view for their transgression

My worry is that somehow in facilitating the apparent emaciation of the male gender, in relation to his roles and identities, neo-feminists and the hyper-feminists (which I would classify the Loose Women as) actually are now using the very same tactics against the male species that feminism has campaigned against in the past. Belittling men as a whole for some minor characteristics seems just as peurile to me as claiming a woman doesn't know the offside rule - it's an age old stereotype which gets trotted out for a cheap laugh. Because it's a show "by women for women" we should accept it? Whether it is in the context of a studio discussion for entertainment value, or in a newspaper column, or on a radio show, perpetuating ideas of this kind doesn't help push forward the whole equality argument one bit. Invoking the BNP-style of whinging, I guess I'm complaining that sexism goes both ways. Mind you, in this horribly ugly television landscape where Cheryl Cole's beauty matters more than her complete inability to judge talent and her past life as an allegedly racist thug, should I really be surprised that programmes like Loose Women are tolerated?

Maybe if there was a Bloke Show, where five men sit together slagging off girls' habits, then the balance would be redressed

Incidentally this reply took me a while to type as I am also watching the football and I cannot multitask, for I am a man.

[Gavin Scott]

I would suggest looking at other and better forums for TV [than TV Forum]. Other places let you post your opinion without getting shot down.

This place has gone to the dogs.

And before you ask why I keep coming back on? Because I get a kick from seeing low lifes act this way. Not everyone mind, mainly Gavin Scott and the likes.

I know I will get banned now, but its not as if this is a free country or we have a right to free speech is it?

Poor jdav. I've obviously devastated him at some point along the way.

I wonder how his free speech is inhibited by me arguing a point (which I assume is to be "shot down"). Perhaps he needs a less demanding audience.

And, as I joined on day two of tv forum's existence, am I to believe he was there enjoying a halcyon experience on day one?

That's a long journey towards the dogs.

[iSon]

Gavin Scott - not just occupying the moral high ground but being right whilst occupying it.

We love you Gav.

[Gavin Scott]

You should have met my mother.

[dosxuk]

More nonsense from steddenm in the Requests forum...

Sorry - I feel like I'm asking really boring questions at the moment ...

But is there an official term for the animated BBC blocks that appear in the opening titles of most BBC programmes nowadays (like EastEnders below)?

AFAIK it's called a TARGA sequence, something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g7WlXbO39c.

What's that saying? Something like "it's better to let everyone think you're stupid than to open your mouth and prove it"?

I suppose it is possible he's actually being completely honest with us, and TARGA, while being the name of an image format, is also the internal name that Trafalgar Media used when they produced the sequence for the BBC.

[Beep]

More nonsense from steddenm in the Requests forum...

Sorry - I feel like I'm asking really boring questions at the moment ...

But is there an official term for the animated BBC blocks that appear in the opening titles of most BBC programmes nowadays (like EastEnders below)?

AFAIK it's called a TARGA sequence, something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g7WlXbO39c.

What's that saying? Something like "it's better to let everyone think you're stupid than to open your mouth and prove it"?

I suppose it is possible he's actually being completely honest with us, and TARGA, while being the name of an image format, is also the internal name that Trafalgar Media used when they produced the sequence for the BBC.

Well it is saved as "bbcprodcaptarga.zip" but I suspect that is the file format and another exists as "bbcprodcap.mpg" and so on. Stedemnmnmnmn frustrates me as he defrauded someone I know who used to regularly use TVForum.

[Alexia]

I think WhoIAm989 espouses the TVF attitude very well in this question:

By the way, you may have seen some clips from Egyptian news bulletin at least once. but who made the graphics?